Live 2.01 Impressions, or "ableton listens, users rejoice" Options

[filarion]

with "sampling your inputs" I simply meant recording something you play, for instance on guitar or keyboard, directly into Live/Logic so that you have a waveform you can loop and work with.

when working with melodies within Reason you will always input notes and values with the mouse (unless you own an external midi keyboard like the Midiman Oxygen 8), something that may work for dance music (not in my opinion, but that's another topic), but you end up with "quantized" music that doesn't groove/swing/whatever unless you reallyreally know how to construct melodies in a software sequencer or know how to write sheet music.

I'm also a declared enemy of "factory presets" - and Reason comes with 2 CDs of samples and patches other people made. they sound great, but spotting a track made with Reason is pretty easy... I prefer to make my own (even though they may be of worse quality), but that's just me. again though, Reason also lets you do that. for the 450€ it costs you can almost get a used Logic Platinum on ebay here in Germany though...

[charlieb]

when working with melodies within Reason you will always input notes and values with the mouse (unless you own an external midi keyboard like the Midiman Oxygen 8), something that may work for dance music (not in my opinion, but that's another topic), but you end up with "quantized" music that doesn't groove/swing/whatever unless you reallyreally know how to construct melodies in a software sequencer or know how to write sheet music.

I'm also a declared enemy of "factory presets" - and Reason comes with 2 CDs of samples and patches other people made. they sound great, but spotting a track made with Reason is pretty easy... I prefer to make my own (even though they may be of worse quality), but that's just me. again though, Reason also lets you do that. for the 450€ it costs you can almost get a used Logic Platinum on ebay here in Germany though...

filarion,
I am definitely planning on buying a midi keyboard, and will most likely go with either a Radium or a Edirol PCR-50.
I understand (I think) how "quanticized" sound is different than the "real" thing. What is the way for someone like me to get around this?

To me at this stage, two CD's of samples sounds great.
And you say for the cost of Reason at 450Euros- The websites I looked at have it for about US$250.

Thanks again,
charlie

[Levon River]

I understand (I think) how "quanticized" sound is different than the "real" thing. What is the way for someone like me to get around this?

First, it simply isn't true that in Reason "you end up with 'quantized' music that doesn't groove" unless, of course, you have all of your input notes snap to the selected beat value--whether input with a mouse or with a keyboard. But that's the same in any sequencer.

A "quantized" MIDI performance is one where the MIDI note-on events have been "snapped" to the nearest "grid line" for whatever note value you have selected in the sequencer to quantize to. E.g., if you have "quantize" (think of it as "snap to grid") on and set to an eighth note, then every MIDI note you enter with a mouse will snap to the nearest eighth note. You can also turn quantize on for recording MIDI, in which case even what you play on a MIDI keyboard will "quantize." You can also quantize selected notes *after* the fact of entry by selecting them and clicking the quantize icon. In Reason (and other sequencers, too), you can set the strength of that after-the-fact quantization on a percentage basis. E.g., if you have the strength set to 50%, Reason will only move the selected notes halfway toward the nearest eighth-note position.

Reason also, though, offers two or three "groove quantize" options in its drop-down where you select the quantizing factor, and also allows the user to create a "groove quantize." Read the manual for more on how to use this more randomizing form of "quantizing."

There are many ways in Reason to avoid "quantized" sounding music. One is, if entering with a mouse, not to have snap on at all. Set a moderate zoom level, and put the notes in at approximately the correct beat. See how it sounds. If it's too far off, select "All," and try quantizing 25% or 50%, or only do that with the most troublsome sections or notes. Another way to avoid quantized parts, obviously, is to just record a part using your MIDI input device--*without* "quantize record" turned on. If you can't play the part at speed, slow the tempo down as much as you need to record it, then put the tempo back up to speed and see how it sounds. Use judicious editing and quantizing as needed to get it how you want it.

Here's another very useful trick for those on a budget: get Band-In-A-Box, select an appropriate "style," generate your song (absolutely ignoring what it sounds like with Quicktime Musical Instruments or any other "built-in" sounds assigned to the part), then export as a standard MIDI file. Import it into Reason, set up four or five NN-XTs with good samples, assign the parts, and listen to an amazingly realistic rhythm section playing your song, ready for yer hot leads and vocals. (Tweaking the parts is recommended, but BIAB has many recent "styles" created by real musicians playing real MIDI-enabled instruments, and now can produce very realistic parts for many instruments with a great variety of groove and velocity variety.) This will, at the very least, give you a "groove" for various of the parts, which you can then edit to make into your own very personalized song.

In Reason, you are *not* locked into the Robots-On-Speed hyperquantized '80s beat-box electronic diarrhea so popular with those who can't make actual music--but which fad thankfully appears to be headed toward its inevitable and welcome demise. Reason certainly doesn't have the best and most flexible sequencer around, but with a little reading of the manual, a little experimentation, and a little patience, you can get completely convincing sequenced parts that can utterly fool seasoned producers into believing that a popular studio band laid down the tracks.

And that last statement is something I can *personally* guarantee you.

[filarion]

thanks for contrapuncting me Levon River, I almost felt bad for dissing Reason as much as I did. I did mention that you can get great results out of Reason however, I was just having a hard time balancing personal opinion and objective suggestions.

charlie, the Reason you saw on sale is most likely version 1. version 2, which was released earlier this year, has aforementioned 2nd sample CD with orchestral samples, a new synthesizer, a new sampler (the NN-XT Levon mentioned) and other new features that improve a lot on the older version. However, I think that a good deal on Reason 1 will probably be your best choice to check it out. Upgrading to v2 is probably cheap. Check www.propellerheads.se for more infos.

I'll stop commenting on the quantize-issue though. just not my way of working (took me 2 years to work myself up to almost never using quantization on the mpc)

[Levon River]

thanks for contrapuncting me Levon River, I almost felt bad for dissing Reason as much as I did. I did mention that you can get great results out of Reason however, I was just having a hard time balancing personal opinion and objective suggestions.

You did, in fact, make a point of mentioning that it's possible to get great results out of Reason--which I sort of glossed over on my first reading and I got into a typing frenzy.

Charlieb got a lot to chew on, in any case.

[charlieb]

Thanks to Levon for a great detailed post, and thanks to filarion also!
You folks have given me so much useful info.

filarion- Reason 2 is $279 on a couple of US websites. Just so you know.

Seems to me that I will wind up getting
Live 2; Reason 2; either a Radium or a Edirol PCR-50; and maybe Band in a Box as well.
From what I feel like I have been told, this will do me better than jumping into Logic.

Now, I am just going to wait and see if Apple comes out with any new PB models in Jan. If not, I will jump pretty soon!

Thanks so much for everyones time and energy.
It is greatly appreciated.

Charlie

[wonx]

Charlie,

I don't know if you would qualify for the educational discounts or not with the workshops you lead, but I just ordered both Live 1.5 with the free update to 2.0 and Reason 2 for a grand total of $348.70 with free shipping from mtlc.com (reason 199 Live 149.70) Screaming deal!

Levon,

I'd love to hear this NN-XT drum kit I've been hearing about. Do you have a tune we could down load?

peace

Wonx

[charlieb]

I don't know if you would qualify for the educational discounts or not with the workshops you lead, but I just ordered both Live 1.5 with the free update to 2.0 and Reason 2 for a grand total of $348.70 with free shipping from mtlc.com (reason 199 Live 149.70) Screaming deal!

Wow, sounds quite interesting.
Is mtlc.com short for a complete name of a site?
When I tried mtlc.com I got a site that does leasing of equipment.

[filarion]

wow, at $199 Reason 2's definitely worth every cent. I'm almost tempted get my own copy - re-drum rewired to Live is a very funky combination.

as comparison, I just looked at purchasing the new Spectrasonic's virtual instruments (Atmosphere and Stylus) for one or two seats at our University's media lab but at 400 respectively 300 bucks this is definitely too much for a simple AU/VSTi, Spectrasonics-quality samples or not.

I'd love to advise on either of those midi keyboards, but I really don't know them. At first glance I like the Edirol better though.

(5 minutes later)

wow, is the PCR-30 identical to the PCR-50 apart from the number of keys? sounds like something I might pick up soon. sweet features. any opinions on Edirol in general? Never owned any of their gear.

[wonx]

My bad! www.mtlc.net It stands for Music Technology Learning Center. Click on the academic additions to get the academic prices. I teach English at a college in Mexico and just sent them my College ID card and that qualified me. Hope it works for you!

-W