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[designlord]

Hello All,

First I want to thank you for taking your time to read this. That spirit is what computers has always been about, only we aren't using Altair or Apple I anymore.

To give you some background, I'm a PC user from the DOS days, when Apple already had a Alto based interface and in terms of OS alone was way ahead. I'm also a PC gamer turned game developers and since after about the Apple II (which a lot of great game developers started on) Apple was in a decline as a games platform and it wasn't an option for me.

I'm also a musician, and as my game development project progressed I started to devote more time to my music. I began building my studio and seeing what software and hardware worked well and what I liked. I'm now at the threshold of going full force with my music and really focusing on it, and I want to complete a powerful studio. I need to figure out my core and I'm trying to see if Apple is the best option. I have also have thought about tapping the Apple game market since great games are still fairly rare but the market is growing. So given all that, and also keeping in mind that a lot of people be it Apple or PC use their platform because it's what they started on and know, and i know PC, I need advice from those who have used both for a good clip of time.

I have never seen any comparison of PC vs Mac dealing with audio apps like Logic 5, or Cubase, or ProTools which sucks, of if you have let me know. I was checking out Logic 5 for a bit before it went Mac only, so I changed to Cubase (also because I think the Cubase audio sounded better, which now makes sense given its Nuendo roots). As deep as I got into both apps they seem to be on par. I recently went to MOTU's site to see DP which is also Mac only and that looks nice. And then there is ProTools LE, or maybe even an base line HD or Nuendo.

So please what is your feedback on these sequencers? Does ProTools HD just do everything that much faster, real time mainly, is that its claim to fame? And does LE really compare, or just share a name? I'm not sure the ProTools studio compatibility is as important as it once was since a lot more studios will work with wave files. Digital Performer also file compatibility with ProTools. So I'm assuming that PT excels in speed and does most everything real time, otherwise its just another sequencer?

What is your experience on performance? I read some Mac users claiming that Cubase isn't as tuned for Mac and the PC performance is much better now. Plus that Yamaha purchase has me wondering about the direction given what happen with Logic dropping PC.


Cost / Performance - Coming from PC this makes it very hard since given what I have already I can build a few High end PC's for the price of a Mac. That is why I'm trying to get some advice.

Also, VST Link under Cubase, any users out there? I have thought about this as a good reason for Cubase as I could use a Mac and my other PC. But again if other hardware systems like ProTools does everything much faster, real time, then it may not be worth it.

Anyways this is a Mac I was looking at, and then the PC I would get if I stay. Keep in mind, for me the PC price would be a bit less since I already have a fair amount of stuff, but I wanted an even keel.

Apple G5 Power Mac

1.8GHz PowerPC G5
256MB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - (Supports up to 4GB)
80GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra with 64MB DDR SDRAM, DVI and ADC ports
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
Mac OS X - U.S. English

Total = $1,500

Custom PC

AMD Athlon 64 3000
3GB PC3200 RAM
WD Caviar Series 250GB 7200RPM SATA Hard
GeForce FX 5200 Video Card with 128MB DDR SDRAM, DVI and ADC ports
Sony Internal 16X DVD+/-R / Double Layer/DVD+/-RW Drive
Microsoft Natural Multimedia Keyboard & Wheel Mouse Optical
Windows XP Pro
3U Rackmount Case

Total = $1,300

As you can see for 200 < then the G5 I can get 170GB more of HD space, a video card with 128MB of RAM, a rackmount case (Note: I could go with a standard case and save about $150, but if I go PC I'll have at least two so I want to get them racked to save space), and the BIG difference 3GB of RAM. Keep in mind I can buy parts over time, something Apple has totally failed allowing. On the up side that MiniMac is finally a nice step, but I doubt it would work for me in Audio, and likely not in Game Dev.

Is the 1.8GHz PowerPC really that much faster when dealing with Audio then the 2GHz AMD 64(aka 3GHz Intel CPU)? I know this is likely since NINTENDO and MS are using IBM to make CPU's for their console, just as Apple does for the Mac, but how much a gap is in question.

I haven't seen any real numbers outside the stupid Photoshop filter test. But I noted on Apple's site that the single 1.8 G5 vs the 3.4 Intel is only 20% > on machines with 2GB of RAM, and RAM is a big.. big part of performance so a 1.8 G5 with ONLY 256MB RAM might not have that 20% margin against a 2GHZ AMD(3GHz Intel) with 3GB of RAM;

So the G5 above is $2,224.00 with 2GB of RAM and a 250GB Hard Drive (its an extra $525 for the RAM and $200 for the Hard Drive upgrade.) This brings it up to the 20% lead as in Apples Benchmark. $1000 more! So I can have 2 of my Custom Machine for the price of one Apple, well for less given the extra PC parts I have, but for anyone else it would be about 300 buck more then the Apple for 2 Customs.

So that is the hard part for me to get past. And the fact that Apple is supposed to be all about music, but yet no benchmarks?

HELP! = ) Apple does a lot right, and so does Microsoft, but since Microsoft and Apple aren't likely to combine and bring the bests of the two companies together, I would like to have a Mac since I haven't had one around for extended time. ( I have an TRS 80 =) )

I hope all this information helps others. And please, mac cross overs, or the rich, do a comparison to get some hard numbers for us people who would like Macs but can't get over Apples tight customizing fist and the price it creates. It reminds me of Packard Bell who would charge 3k and throw in a lot of useless software and such. Also, I just read the standard warranty but didn't see it, does adding new parts yourself (ie breaking the seal) void the warranty? If not then I could customize the apple a bit using PC parts to help offset the cost.

A note since this will come up. I don't know what everyone else is has been doing to their machines but Window XP running Cubase, or Logic, doesn't Crash for me, and I don't have compatiblity problems with software or hardware. Granted I know more then your average user, but mainly it's about getting the right hardware, something PC manufactures don't always do, that is why a lot of people have issues in my experience. Also, given Windows install base and the fact that very fool has access to us a program to upload a virus hack a computer it is very open to issues on-line that Apple isn't. I have firewalls and all sorts of scaners and I haven't had a problem, but as a note my studio rig will be off-line unless required for some registration, otherwise I'll use one of my other rigs, so viruses and all the other such reason's Apples are better that I have seen don't apply. I'm after G5 performance info to warrent the price as well as how the various Sequencers work on the given platform and the benefits.

Thanks All.

Begin Rant

FOR MR JOBS - Maybe one of you hardcore Mac men can send him this. =)

I just want an Apple machine running OSX at a reasonable hardware price compare to PC. 2GB RAM upgrade shouldn't cost $525 when I can get 3GB of Corsair RAM for $300, and its all DDR RAM. that is just hardware monopoly, and everyone doesn't like MS for its software monopoly.

End Rant

Ce message a été modifié par designlord - dim. 13 mars 2005, 12:47.

[nycsour]

designlord,

those specs you mentioned in your response to me would be greatly appreciated!

-nycsour

[chappy]

You may be down to a very simple plan that I advise anyone entering the arena.
Make a list of your needs and your wants. This is a serious task and you'll find conflicts. When it's done, there's your plan. You have a different skill set than most because you bring a strong computer background that might sway you into the PC world. If so, get Nuendo or Cubase.
If you go with Mac (I just put in another one with PT HD3Accell). A g5 with dual 2.5 proc. and 6/gig of ram. I put a bunch of other programs on it too. Wow!

If it's you doing your music, stay with what you know and throw PTLE with a Digi 002.
You can run Live and Reason and still get a decent track count if you load up on ram.
I have 4 PT systems because it keeps me in the loop and some are portable, some are
geared more for writing and my main system, along with Apogee 16x converters form the core of my main studio. So, I at least have a 'standard' (if there is such a thing)
here. It keeps me compatible with most other pro studios running mostly Pro Tools and Logic Pro as an auxillary program.
None of these will make you a better writer or musician but they will facilitate your ability to become both.
Yes, I am a producer and am occassionally out in LA. I live on the Other Coast
and produce some people you know and some that no one knows. I also write for TV and film and I love almost all of it.
best of luck,
chao

[chappy]

sorry.....that should have read:
If you go with Mac (parenthetical pride for new box) you will easily
plug in to the system with your background.
I've spent a lot of money on Macs and I always make it back but it's my job
so i don't have the time (or ability) to learn the nuances of a brand new, seemingly complicated system like a PC. The pro users that do swear by them are using Nuendo
or Cubase and there's a move in some circles to Pyramix ($80,000 for a multi track rig). They also have an assistant that runs the computer while they engineer the session with lots of outboard gear.

I also have an assitant who is handy on the Mac and brings a wide variety of skills with him. All of that stuff is great if you're making music. Otherwise, it's just an expensive dog and pony show.
good luck,
chap

[designlord]

nycsour

Here is a listing I compiled at newegg.com where I normally buy parts from. NOTE* The video card I was matching vs the G5, you may want to spring for an ATI x700 or such. The Western Digital Hard Drive list may not be their best, but in that price range you can find the model that is( like the WD2000PB and WD2000BB). It makes a good starting point anyways. And as always you'll probably want to set aside an extra $50-$100 for extra quite fans, depending on your setup. BTW, what are you goals musically?

EPoX "EP-8KDA3J" nForce3-250Gb Chipset $69.75

Rosewill nVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Video Card, 128MB DDR, 64-bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP, Model "RW5200-128D2" -RETAIL $49.99

AMD Athlon 64 3000+, 512KB L2 Cache 64-bit Processor - Retail $146.00

3 X Geil Ultra Series Value 184-Pin 1GB DDR PC-3200 w/ Blue Heatspreader - Retail $405.75

WD Caviar Series 200GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive Kit, Model WD2000JDRTL, Retail
$178.00

Microsoft Natural Multimedia Keyboard & Wheel Mouse Optical Value Pack PS/2
$30.50

Sony Internal 16X DVD+/-R / Double Layer/DVD+/-RW Drive, Model DRU710A, Retail
$88.99

Microsoft Windows XP Professional With Service Pack 2 -OEM
$147.95

I-STAR 3U Stylish Rackmount Server Chassis (Black) With I-Star 300W Power Supply, Model "D-300 Storm Series" -RETAIL
$177.50

[designlord]

Chappy,

Well I just got off the phone with Digidesign sales and he help answer my questions. Basically ProTools HD is the only hardware accelerated audio solution (at least of what we talked about, know anything else?). To put it in easy terms for anyone who plays games, think of it as software rendering Doom I or Super Mario vs hardware rendering like Halo or GTA (do a search for "sreenshots AND" Super Mario or Halo for a visual). ProTools LE is just an Digital to Analog Converter and offers Nil in the way of hardware acceleration, your host machine does everything else. Where as on a ProTools HD it has at least 9 chips that process audio and plug-ins leaving your Host Computer to... update the screen, more or less.

So I have decided that I'm going to shoot for a PT HD system. The Rep told me that performance is really good on either PC or Mac (Dual 1.8GHz 2GB RAM $2,724.00) with an approved PC like Dell Precision Workstation 670 (Dual 2.8GHz Xeon 2GB RAM $2,730.20), or proper selected quality parts if building a custom machine. I will have to get PTHD first and see if it works on my current system, and if not I might as well spring for a Mac above (san Apple RAM so about $2400) so I can develop games on it too. Using PTHD should make the Host machine speed a mute point so it's about my interfacing with the machine and cost/benefit (ie my Mac development).

So Chappy, this is what I'm looking at.

Pro Tools|HD 1
US List Price: $7,995
192 I/O
US List Price: $3,995

Dual 1.8GHz PowerPC G5
• 256MB DDR400 SDRAM: $1,898 (meager $100 work discount)
http://datamem.com G5 compt RAM 1GB = 159.00 (2x)
$2,200

SubTotal 14,190
Tax 1,028
_______________
Total $15,218

Or Maybe

Pro Tools|HD 1
US List Price: $7,995
96 I/O - though for a system I hope to have for at least 5 years 96KHz sample rate may not have the legs for the future. Any new thoughts Chappy given my direction?
US List Price: $1,995

Current PC

Total $10,723

Well it's a good thing I didn't go buy a new car after all! I still have plenty of time to change my mind while I get the money together, I rather only finance half of the cost and pay the rest in cash.

So Chappy do you only work via record companies, or do you do any indy albums? What style of music do you work with most? I might be able to use some input from a producer as I work my album together, if you would be willing.

As for Pyramix. I went to their website and it is the epitome of the old PC "engineers doing design" style website. I.E. Crap. 80K huh... Ha It better include a damn man servant to run the thing for me, do everything real-time and have a better appearance than that. I'm not going to look at cards and pay 80k. Makes paying 15k for PTHD much more palatable.

[lepetitmartien]

(yawn)

[CptAnalog]

I know how you feel. I learned DOS before being introduced to the Mac. I hated the GUI at first: at least DOS told me what it was doing instead of just some goofy wristwatch. But, enough history.
I'm a confirmed Mac user now. Even my ancient systems give less trouble than any PC I've ever used. And, OS 9.2 only uses 28 Meg of RAM for itself.
That said, I've found that Performer is a better MIDI app, while ProTools handles audio better. Heck, I still use Sound Designer for wave editing and mastering.
In my own perfect world I'd still be using Dyaxis, which only uses the Mac to run the graphics.

[designlord]

Hey Ppl,

So I have a question. What do you guys use Logic for when you are running ProTools, just the midi? And how do they interface together, are you exporting your midi and importing it into ProTools or just running it on a secondary machine and using it as a instrument (though you wouldn't be using all that nice hardware acceleration doing it that last way)?

Thanks

Ce message a été modifié par designlord - mar. 22 mars 2005, 14:22.

[ourmanflinty]

Logic allows you to use the PT hardware and native hardware at the same time, you run two audio engines at the same time within Logic and route audio between them..this way you get to have all your Logic instruments or recorded audio processed with AU or Logic plugs then routed out to your PT engine and further plugged and processed before being pumped out through your Mix or HD hardware...You can liken it to running RTAS and TDM plugs at the same time in PT software but it's more flexible.

[chappy]

Good choice. I have 3 PT sytems. a Digi 002 for a 'b' room, an MBox w/laptop for travel and PTHD3 Accell.
The HD system is light years ahead of the others even on system 9.2 (gone now).
Before buying the Digi hardware (average), check out the options from Apogee.
congrats!
chap