Completely Overwhelmed - Got A Min?, Overwhelmed and seeking advice Options

[damon]

I'm completely overwhelmed. I'd love some help.

I'm an ex-DJ (1994-1996) turned tech worker turned wannabe musician. I've been persuing this new life since July last year, and have more or less been reading constantly, learning theory basics, learning about synthesis (I've spend most of my time on synthesis, pretty good now actually) and am now getting ready to build a home project studio of significance.

I have been saving hard, so I've got a good amount of money to spend.

Right now, I'm trying to use Logic. I bought the big box, and have an EMI 2|6 (not 6|2) which is fed by my synths which are plugged into a Mackie 1202 VLZ.

Here's the thing: Yes, the environment makes sense, yes, I can make Logic work, but it just doesn't sit with me. I just don't *like* using it. I've messed with ProTools Free (I love the workflow... audio to the right, midi snips to the left, very fast for me) and DP 3 at a pal's studio, and they both feel so much more natural to me. However, I keep reading how incredible Logic is, how nice the plugins are, how great the sampler is, etc.

So, the big question is: How important is it for me to learn to love Logic? I'm overwhelmed with the options out there, and would like to settle, but I just can't seem to enjoy myself with it.

In building out the project studio, I'm about to invest in a control surface, a big audio interface, etc, and the sequencer I choose affects this. With PT, I'd get a 002 in a second. With Logic it's a HALO or a Firestation or the Hammerfall and the Logic Control. With DP, I have no idea since apparantly the MOTU 828 drivers choke serious goatbutt in OS X atm.

So, please, does anyone have some wisdom/guidence/grand words from a grand poobah to sprinkle down to this wee blind lost scared wounded limping potentially logic-allergic sheep?

Thank you kindly. ;-]

[manexmachina]

I can make Logic work, but it just doesn't sit with me. I just don't *like* using it.

After years and years with ProTools I started learning logic. I had a friend's manual and sat at his system and wanted to love it (because I didn't when I started) and after a day or so I really *got* it. I totally understood why people would love it and think it was the most powerful midi tool out there and I decided right then, I wasn't going to use it. Like you, it wasn't fun. Yeah, you can set it up etc etc and you can learn to love it, but that's just one more thing to learn. I totally understoood what someone once told me... "DP is the tool for those who love the music and Logic is the tool for those who love the tool."

Use what inspires you. That's why I'm on a Mac. It sure isn't its currenly slow processing speed - it's that the workflow works for me.

DP is very pretty, Cubase SX (and Nuendo 2) are not quite as pretty, but they're just as fun to use. I love ProTools, but 1) it's midi capabilities are lacking and 2) I'm just sooooo tired of them being so hardware focused.

Now, on the flip side, the 002 might be the ticket for you. It's an awsome little pacakge if you're wanting a control surface. Lots of instruments are apparently starting to make RTAS plugs. It's definitely a contender and isn't a $10,000 investment which will become $20,000 and then have to be totally upgraded in 2 years. If that's the thing that's speaking to you - figure out what it is really lacking that you would need? Tempo mapping? you need that? does it have it?

I wouldn't tell you what to get... but they all do pretty much same stuff (with some exceptions)... they do it differently. You need to think about what you are doing with it and anything you hear, you want to know what the source of that info does with it. I do scores and pop-type music.

There's no perfect choice, so go with the one that seems to make the workflow the most fun and the simplest. And don't let anyone convince you that any tool is the only must have - look for the little bonuses that will help you be more productive. ProTools, Logic, Cubase/Nuendo, DP - they're all a hell of a lot better than what I was using back in '91 and I did some okay stuff back then.

[damon]

Use what inspires you.

Thank you for the well thought out response. I believe production is art, not science, at it's core -- even though there is a ton of science in the tool. I, too, am a Mac user, and it's for no other reason than elegance in function. Everything has a purpose and a place, and it's all so well finished.

What about DP then? What did you have to learn to change about your workflow in shifting from ProTools to DP? Which version of PT did you leave in exchange for which version of ProTools? How was the transition? Is there anything about ProTools you miss?

Thanks again for the time and effort. ;-] Very generous...

[manexmachina]

I've been gliding between DP and Cubase SX / Nuendo sort of waiting to see what their next versions offer actually - so DP hasn't got me quite yet.

It's very easy to describe what I miss about ProTools, the audio editing was just perfect. It was a great paradigm - very fluid. The midi though, you can't get too ambitious. Most people don't. Most people spend $4,000 on their computer to play a video game and $2000 to write letters. But... you can definitely see the ceiling on the midi front in ProTools.

I like DP because it is so incredibly Mac oriented. I haven't warmed up to it's excessive use of windows. Know that generally I've found film composers prefer DP - or they have up until recently for certain.

Nuendo/Cubase - I like it because it's like Protools with a lot of good midi tools added in, it's that simple. They listened to what PT users wanted very carefully and tried to fill in that gap. What brought me to it was my wishing ProTools had good midi capabilities... and then someone said, "well, that's basically nuendo."

There really isn't a best choice. The only thing I know is that I ruled out Logic for the same reasons you experienced. Both DP and Nuendo/Cubase (btw I say it like that becuase I'm told the NEW nuendo looks/feels just like cubase sx and nuendo simply has more advanced audio editing tools)... but as I was saying, both will pretty much do the same thing... and when DP supports Audio Units, it should have VST vicariously thorugh a tool that has recently come out to convert plugs (don't have link handy).

Try to play with both for a couple hours if you can... make some music... see which one appeals to you... talk to people who use the tools...

honestly, either one would do the trick I bet.

BTW, the Mach5 I got to see at NAMM and it seemed really appealing as well, which, for some reason, made being homogenus with all MOTU a neat concept.

[damon]

What brought me to it was my wishing ProTools had good midi capabilities... and then someone said, "well, that's basically nuendo." .... Mach5 I got to see at NAMM and it seemed really appealing as well, which, for some reason, made being homogenus with all MOTU a neat concept.

Nuendo. I haven't even looked at that for a second yet, looks like I've got some reading to do.

The best stuff I've done has been with lots of hardcore audio snipping and arranging. Makes me think PT is rockin. But nuendo... new stuff to read. More decisions! Even more overwhelming! Hehe...

As for Mach 5, it looks interesting. My focus is pretty 'out there' electronic music in the vein of Arovane, Venitian Snares, Autechre, Dynamo, Aphex Twin et al. Because of this, I've grown in love with NI's Kontakt. So many ways to ginsu sound and reshape it. I've already chosen.

Thanks again for the input. I might have some Cubase/Nuendo questions for you soon. ;-]

What a great board. I can't offer help here with much other than audio synthesis, but I'm very strong there... I'll hang around.

[rickenbacker]

I can understand you saying Logic doesn't really sit well with you - I felt the same. It's similar to why I prefer Macromedia design tools to Adobe - Freehand rather than Illustrator. I just like the interface better, the way it works.

You might like to consider Cubase SX or the cheaper SL, which I find much more straightforward in use than Logic but still powerful enough for pro results. VST compatible, too, so a lot of soft synths around.

However, I've now come back to Logic with version 6. The supplied plug-ins are superior, IMHO, and the capabilities now with 6 are unmatched. There is also a VST wrapper available (fxpansion.com?) that converts VST plugs into Audio Units for use in Logic. Haven't tried it yet, but they promise extremely low latency.

I'd say having come this far, stick with Logic - unless you REALLY don't get on with it. In that case, there are plenty of alternatives that all do more or less the same thing.

[rickchaff]

Get Metro 6.0 Light $49.00 fantastic capabilities if you like it move up to the full version.

Get it at www.sagantech.com it has great midi and audio
capabilities. The light version is limited but at that price
you cant possibility go wrong.

Rick

[damon]

I'd say having come this far, stick with Logic - unless you REALLY don't get on with it. In that case, there are plenty of alternatives that all do more or less the same thing.

Well, I really can't. Four months and I'm perfectly functional in it, even as far as to having built some interesting environments that do crazy sequencing tricks, and having most all of my samples in the EXS format.

And I still just feel like it's total labor to use it.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to go for PT and the 002, and do my simpler MIDI there, and the more complex MIDI via MAX.

Thanks for the input though, I appreciate you taking the time. ;-]

[damon]

Get Metro 6.0 Light $49.00 fantastic capabilities if you like it move up to the full version.

Get it at www.sagantech.com it has great midi and audio
capabilities. The light version is limited but at that price
you cant possibility go wrong.

Rick

I ran screaming from floops seven months ago, and don't want to get into another budget package. Thanks for the input though, it really is appreciated despite the disagreeance. ;-]

[rickenbacker]

I'm sure you already know this, but once you opt for the Pro Tools route you're locked into an expensive upgrade path and any third-party plug-ins you want to buy (if they're available at all) are always way more expensive than their Audio Unit or VST equivalents. It's a great system and the 002 is nice hardware, but I ultimately chose not to go with a Pro Tools LE set-up because of the rather narrow future options it presents.

Also, is the 002 USB or FireWire? For Midi you're OK with USB, but add any audio and the ice you're skating on gets increasingly thin the more audio tracks you add.

If you already know all this, no worries then!

[damon]

opt for the Pro Tools route you're locked into an expensive upgrade path and any third-party plug-ins you want to buy ... are always way more expensive than their Audio Unit or VST equivalents ... is the 002 USB or FireWire?

Thanks for more input.

I've considered the cost, but I feel it's affordable for me, especially if it does for me what I feel it will. I still get 5x as much done in ProTools Free than I do in Logic just out of love for the way it works.

I understand the narrow upgrade path, but my needs really are pretty simple. I use primarily Native Instruments products, which are all going RTAS during this year, and until then DirectConnect works (sort of). I really am in the early stages too, so this is more than enough to play with.

The Digi 002 is FireWire. I wouldn't even think of trying to push 8 channels of 24/96 across an 11mbit pipe. I don't think Digi would either.

I get nervous when I'm running six outs at 16/48 via my EMI 2|6, which is USB. It just feels weird, like I'm teetering. Though, it hasn't let me down yet.

Thanks again for the feedback... You a bassist too? Guessing so from the nick and icon. I just grabbed that Fender Geddy Lee edition Jazz Bass, and it's nice. Someday I hope to get an early 70s somethingorother, but for now that money goes to Digidesign I suppose.

[rickenbacker]

Damon: "You a bassist too?"

Nah, 12-string 360 all the way, though I do have an Epiphone Viola bass that does the low-end work for me via a Bass Pod.

With the 002 being FireWire, that's one less headache to worry you. Nothing worse than being right in the creative flow and suddenly running up against a brick-wall of techonological breakdown - ie USB choking your audio signal.

Sounds like your mind is made up with the 002 and I'm sure it'll serve you well. Good luck with it all.

[damon]

Sounds like your mind is made up with the 002 and I'm sure it'll serve you well. Good luck with it all.

Thanks. I will let you know how it goes.

Maybe people here would enjoy a comprehensive in-depth user analysis of the thing. I wouldn't mind writing something up once I spend a couple weeks with it. Maybe I'll do that... I wasn't able to find tons of content on it here.

Great site, just noticed you moderate this forum. I'm glad to find another great community. *pulls up seat, kicks feet up*

[dixiechicken]

Damon!
Go with DP if you really feel more at home with the workflow in that program.

Sell the Logic Box if you already bought it get DP4/DP3 instead.
( yes you'd probably loose some money - that way )

I firmly beleive that workflow & creativity is much more important, in the long run. Cakewalk, Pro Tools, Cubase & Digital Performer are all complex programs with a fairly steep learning curve.

I happen to feel the same way you do - to me "pro tools" and "dp" feel much more natural. I'm sure others feel different.
( I'm waiting for my free DP4 upgrade )
Good Luck!

Cheers: Dixiechicken