Essential Stuff? Options

[macshark]

Hello all. My name is Scott, and I am a newbie. Hello, Scott...

Okay, now that's out of the way, let me say that I have dug thorough this entire site as well as others, and I am still a little (lot) confused about the necessary equipment.

I have used/demo'd - Ableton Live, Bias Peak and Deck, Spark ME, Storm, Reason, and Metro. Haven't tried PT or Logic yet. I am on a G3 slot-loading iMac, OSX 10.2.4. I may be upgrading the computer w/in the next year if necessary.

All I want to do is record electric guitar and vocals into my imac, and do multitrack and editing on the computer. Also, I need some type of drum machine, beats, etc. Basically just looking to record my own songs for my own use (for now).

I don't have any other hardware (keyboard or midi-controller), but would consider getting an inexpensive one.

After all that, finally to the question at hand. What do I need to effectively do this? Live, Deck, and Metro seem to be the same to me in that they will let you multi-track. I like Spark a lot, and don't see where Peak is any better as a pure recorder. I could not figure out Storm or Reason. Not sure I really need all the midi-synth stuff. But I do NEED drum tracks.

Any suggestions, on software and hardware that I should look into?

Sorry for such a long request. Thanks.

Scott

[xingu]

Hi Scott,

I don't know enough about every program to comment, but here's a few random thoughts:

As you probably figured out, Peak and Spark won't get you anywhere for multitracking. Your decision depends not only on what you want to do now, but also what capabilities you might want in the future. If you really won't have any use for MIDI sequencing, Deck seems a reasonable way to go. Can you still boot into OS9 with your iMac? If so, you really might want to consider downloading ProTools Free, which will give you up to 8 audio tracks, but doesn't work in OSX yet (but it's free!). Metro 6 SE seems kinda cool - and cheap. Plus, Metro is the only existing DAW that supports both Audio Units and VST plugs (but that won't matter unless you are going to require third party effects, etc.). There are no Logic demos, but it might be overkill for your needs anyway.

I use Reason, primarily as a drum machine (at least for now). It's a little intimidating at first, but if you buy it, the manual will get you going. The Redrum module within Reason allows drum patterns to be programmed like a step sequencer. You don't absolutely need a keyboard controller to do this, and it will run in both OSX and OS9 (in case you take the PT Free route). I don't know anything about Storm, or other drum machine apps for that matter.

I would also suggest looking into Cubase SL or SX - considerable multitrack capabilities, full on MIDI sequencing and the like - but Cubase also features a built in drum machine. OSX only.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong - the older iMacs have audio inputs, right? I guess you could get away with that using the built in sound controller, but if you want better sound quality, and particularly if you want to track guitar and vocals simultaneously, you will need an audio interface. There's tons of threads on this site about recommended interfaces for various needs. You'll need to think about how many inputs you require (or will in the future).

Meanwhile, there's a lot to think about, and quite possibly a lot of money to come up with! Hope this helps some.

[macshark]

xingu,

Thanks for your great reply. I cannot boot in os9, so I guess I can't try out PT Free.

I will continue to play with Reason, but it certainly is intimidating at first. So, you can program a drum track with Reason, and input it into Deck and combine with guitar tracks and vocal tracks? If so, that sounds like a good start.

Spark seems real easy to use, and I have already plugged into the computer for recording the guitar (through a Digitech processor).

Well, I will keep digging further. Thanks again for your help.

[macshark]

Hey,

I see two packages for sale at audiomidi.com:
- Bias Studio Le (Peak and Deck) - $139
- Reason w/ Oxygen 8 midikeyboard - $368

Seem like pretty good deals. any thoughts?

Also, what is the real difference between Logic and Deck?

Thanks again...

[xingu]

So, you can program a drum track with Reason, and input it into Deck and combine with guitar tracks and vocal tracks?

In a nutshell, yes. Now some programs like Live, Cubase, and Logic 6 feature Rewire 2 support, which enables you to link the output of Reason directly into the sequencers of the other programs. However, Deck and Logic (versions 5 and under) do not support Rewire 2, so you have to export whatever you do in Reason as an audio track and then import that into your multitracker. Not as efficient, but certainly not difficult.

Those packages seem like pretty good deals, but unless you really think you'll use Peak for mastering, I'd just get Deck LE on its own for $79. Are you sure you only want 8 tracks of audio? It's pretty easy to fill them quickly - especially if you're going to import drum sequences from Reason. To explain, Reason (at least to my knowledge) only exports songs as stereo audio files. I'm not positive with about the regular Deck LE, but the bundled version that came with my US-428 (an audio interface from Tascam) doesn't support stereo interleaved audio files, so the drum files take up 2 tracks (one for the left channel, one for the right). Add a couple guitar tracks, double up on your vocals - well, you get the picture. You just don't want to be stuck down the road limiting yourself and then wind up spending the extra money anyway if you want to expand.

There are tons of differences between Logic and Deck, but the simplest distinction between the two is that Logic handles MIDI sequencing, Deck does not.

[macshark]

Thanks again, xingu. I really have read through most of this forum, and I see that you are often a big help to others. It is appreciated.

What got me interested in this, is I wanted to record a song, and my guitar instructor and I cut a track on his computer-based system (he uses a PC and sonar, I think). I was really pleased with how good it came out, and how relatively easy it was. But I did learn from that that we needed about 12 tracks for the final version. So, you are right about 8 track probably being a problem.

So lets see if I got this right. I plug my guitar and a vocal mic into some type of audio interface (tascam, mbox, etc). Record various tracks with Spark ME. Produce drum tracks with Reason. Mix, sequence, add MIDI and create a AIF file with Logic/PT/DP, and I am now a rock star!!!

Is that anywhere near correct?

Also, I think musiciansfriend has the big box bundle for about $189. That sounds like a good way to go.

Scott

[xingu]

No problem, glad to be of help with my limited scope of knowledge. You were pretty right on except for the part about recording various tracks in Spark - unnecessary. Once you get your multitracker (Logic, DP, etc.), you will want to record tracks directly in there. I downloaded Spark ME but still have yet to use it. I also have the Logic Big Box, the major reason being price (I picked mine up for $199). $189 is a great price! Most of what I've seen is $239, but that's still good, all things considered for up to 48 audio tracks and enough built-in, quality plug-ins/effects to satisfy us amateur types. Good luck!

[rickenbacker]

Another way of exporting Reason files is to save them individually, rather than as a stereo mix. This won't help you save on number of tracks used in your sequencer, obviously, but it gives you more flexibility further down the line for mixing etc.

I second Xingu's advice re Logic Big Box, Cubase SL or if you could really stretch it, the Emagic Production Kit for £500 is pretty spectacular. It includes Logic Gold, plus a whole load of virtual instruments and even a USB audio interface. That would solve all your problems in one fell swoop. The downside is the price tag.

Storm is cool: around £99, kind of a budget Reason, although it has unique sounds and other useful features. Nice to have around, anyway.

[xingu]

Oh yeah - I forgot to re-emphasize Cubase SL, which could save you some, considering its bulit-in 24-bit drum machine. Steinberg is currently running a $50 rebate, so you can pick it up for $300 - a nice price for sure. Hey Rickenbacker - can you provide any feedback on the sound quality/usability of the Cubase drum machine?

If you go the Logic route, that Gold Production Kit is nice if you can swing it (about $650). But you'd still need Reason for the drum machine (or Storm). And just to clarify, Rickenbacker was referring to exporting each Reason track as a separate audio file - then when you import each of these into your DAW into their own tracks, you can adjust levels, EQs, add effects, etc. to each individually instead of to the whole Reason "song". This, of course, will only apply if you're actually adding, say synth parts, to your drum track - or if you arrange your drum pattern so each sound has its own track. The possibilities are endless...

[rickenbacker]

If you're not in a financial position to lash out a foolish amount of money just for your drums at the moment (who is?), have a look at Doggiebox. It's a simple, no frills OS X drum machine and it's pretty good for its $29 asking price. It would certainly give you an outlet for some basic rhythm tracks and get you started.

It's not exactly Battery or Reason, but it costs a whole lot less. There's also a good community around it, so help is easy to come by. It's not a VST virtual instrument, though, so like Reason you have to export your finsihed tracks as audio and drop them into your sequencer.

Other drum options? Steinberg's VST LM4 MkII, now available for OS X. I think that's around £90, maybe less. It's the same drum machine included with Cubase SX or SL, only on steroids (ie a lot better). The version in SX/SL is OK, though, and is called the LM7 (so you can appreciate its relation to the LM4).

I mean, once you have Reason or something you probably wouldn't bother using the LM7 again, but it's got some decent sounds and is as flexible as you need for knocking up a quick drum track. If you bought SL, I think you'd be happy enough for quite a while. Plus you get a bass synth and the new Waldorf-designed A1 synth, too, which is very nice.

Saying that, if you buy Logic (any version) you get 3 synths - the ES M, E and P, which are also very nice. Do you get the idea that all these sequencers are basically knocking themselves out to offer us the best bundle? You'd be right.

As for Reason files, that's exactly what I meant - you can isloate each individual drum sound per track for maximum mixing shenanigans. Same goes for the synths and samplers. Frankly, I'd just buy Reason and get the whole drum problem sorted in one go - version 2.5 has some terrific new features, too. You wouldn't regret it.

Cubase or Logic now both support ReWire 2, so if you really need to you can run Reason's output to your sequencer's mixer inputs and mix your whole track that way. Requires a whole lot of raw computer power to run two apps that way, so exporting as audio is still less stressful for your CPU.

If you did buy Reason, you get the key to a whole world of other sounds to spice up your music. Even if you just do guitar stuff, it's surprising how much better everything sounds with a little Reason magic sprinkled on top. A few days spent solidly working with the program and you'll get the hang of using it. It's not rocket science, even if at first glance it might seem like it.

Final word of warning: does the Big Box run in OS X yet? And does the Silver version of Logic contained therein support ReWire 2? As of now, only Platinum 6 supports it.

Any more questions, come right back at us.

[xingu]

Final word of warning: does the Big Box run in OS X yet? And does the Silver version of Logic contained therein support ReWire 2? As of now, only Platinum 6 supports it.

As to the first question, it most certainly does. I'm not positive if the actual CD in the box is OSX-ready (mine wasn't) but all you really need to do is download Logic Audio version 5.5 from emagic's site, plug in your XSKey, and begin. On to the next issue, according to the new comparision chart, all 3 versions of Logic 6 will support Rewire 2 - it's just that Audio and Gold 6 have yet to be released.

[macshark]

If you go the Logic route, that Gold Production Kit is nice if you can swing it (about $650)

- Now that does look pretty cool! Maybe more $ than I am willing to spend. Hmmm. Big Box might be a more reasonable way to go. Then save my pennies for reason. Also, I read a pretty good review of Logic Platinum in ElectronicMusician. I kow the big box contains a scaled down version, but for me that should be fine.

have a look at Doggiebox

- I've downloaded the demo. I will play with it. It is pretty fun. I bet there are some good demos on the website to keep me satisfied for awhile.

Again, thanks again to both of you. You'll be remembered on the liner notes of my first CD...

[rickenbacker]

"Again, thanks again to both of you. You'll be remembered on the liner notes of my first CD..."

Great! My time here has finally paid off!

PS...
Although you're busy saving your pennies for Reason, you have bought an audio/midi interface in the meantime, right? Otherwise you're going to have a job recording anything.

One bonus for you with the Big Box is you could probably use the EXSP24 sample player to spin in sampled drums off the accompanying CDs or get more samples off the web etc. So you'll be able to get some drums in your songs that way.

[xingu]

you could probably use the EXSP24 sample player to spin in sampled drums off the accompanying CDs or get more samples off the web etc.

Unfortunately, since you can't boot into OS9, you can't use the EXSP24 yet. Last I heard though, emagic is in the process of porting this and the EVP73 piano to Audio Units format for OSX, so all hope is not lost. (The ES1 synth does work in OSX). Either way, sans Reason or other drum machine, you can still use drum loop sample CDs that feature WAV or other audio formats, and then import into any multitracking app and copy/paste, repeat, loop, etc. to your heart's content.

Ce message a été modifié par xingu - mar. 25 mars 2003, 14:16.

[macshark]

" you have bought an audio/midi interface in the meantime, right? Otherwise you're going to have a job recording anything."

Good point. I have been researching that as well. I am currently running a 1/8 line out of the back of a cheap Digitech Guitar processor into the mic line-in on my iMac. Not great quality, but it works. I know I need to upgrade that as well.

I don't anticipae needing more than than two lines in (and possibly a midi keyboard in the future). Any recommendations? Does something like the Oxygen 8 have a place to plug a guitar into it?

[xingu]

No, the Oxygen8 only sends MIDI. There's quite a few audio interfaces out there - Tascam, Edirol, M-Audio, etc. For a low cost, multi-in solution, you might want to have a look at the Tascam US-122, which gives you 2 simultaneous ins between 2 line inputs and 2 XLRs with phantom power, plus a MIDI in/out - not a bad combo for $199 (expected retail). It should be available in a few weeks. But, if you're only going to record one track at a time, the iMac's line in should do ok for you in the meantime.

[rickenbacker]

This Tascam sounds like another interesting development. I've tested the 428 and the 224, so I'm guessing this is the latest mini-me version. What's next? The 011?

Fair point on the samples, too - nothing's going to be ideal until you have a dedicated drum app, but there are plenty of reasonable workarounds. Ingenuity, that's the key.

Your 1/8" line in will be fine for a while, too - it's still "CD quality" in theory. Some people get too hung up on 24-bit/96KHz interfaces. Anyway, the Oxygen 8 is a great Midi keyboard, but M-Audio are also set to release the Ozone. This'll basically be an Oxygen 8 with an audio interface in it, too - like an Oxygen 8 crossed with a Duo in fact. Available "soon".

[xingu]

Yeah, alot of people on the Tascam board were yawning about the 122 - the big deal there seems to be the inclusion of phantom power (which the 224 and 428 lack) plus the price tag.

I hadn't heard of the Ozone, which looks very cool and probably ideal for our friend macshark here, provided m-audio's OSX drivers are up to snuff. Nice specs - MIDI interface, keyboard, 24/96, line and XLRs with phantom power - and it's available. Musician's Friend has it for $329.

[macshark]

Great ideas. I think I will start slow, and build up. I am going to order the Big Box tonight and start with the line-in plug I am currently using. Next in line I'll take a look at the Ozone and the Tascam to improve upon things, then lastly a dedicated drum app. Then, after I receive my tax refund....

I'll keep you posted on how it works out. Again, thanks, and happy recording to both of you.

Scott

[xingu]

Sounds like a plan... Since you're going to hold off on a drum app for now, here's a page with a bunch of links to sample CD suppliers so you can find some loops. Good luck!

[dr. schoft]

Macshark i hope you dont feel interrupted in your questioning about your setup...

but the thing is im confused (what's new ) about one thing. why not use a cd with good drumsamples and load them into your midisoundlibrary so you can have the drums just using the score facility?

sorry for maybe bringing down the level but im kindof in the same boat, so there you go

cheers

[macshark]

Dr. Schoft,

Thanks, and I agree with you completely. It is sites like this that have dramatically improved my knowledge on this subject. So, now at least I know the very tip of the iceberg. When I first asked the question, I did not know about drum samples/loops, and how you could integrate them within the mix. But, now that I know that, and the fact that I can't drum (let alone program a drum machine), I may just stick with that suggestion. Xingu's link seemed to have some good cd samples there too. Check it out.

Also, man that Ozone looks pretty cool. That would also take care of the need for a mic pre-amp too right?

[xingu]

Also, man that Ozone looks pretty cool.  That would also take care of the need for a mic pre-amp too right?

Yup! (that's the phantom power)

[macshark]

Well, while we have a plan, looks like the Logic Big Box is back-ordered everywhere. Hopefully only a couple of weeks. If anybody finds a place where it is in stock, please let me know. Thanks.

[macshark]

Hey, me again.

Any advice - Logic 5.5 Big Box is on backorder everywhere. And now 6.0 is announced. If I buy the 5.5, can I upgrade for free? Or should I just wait for 6.0, and get that.

Thanks again...

[xingu]

If you're in the U.S., yes, you'll get the free upgrade to 6.
See here.

Ce message a été modifié par xingu - ven. 4 avril 2003, 00:57.