A Pc | Mac Question Options

[designlord]

Hello All,

First I want to thank you for taking your time to read this. That spirit is what computers has always been about, only we aren't using Altair or Apple I anymore.

To give you some background, I'm a PC user from the DOS days, when Apple already had a Alto based interface and in terms of OS alone was way ahead. I'm also a PC gamer turned game developers and since after about the Apple II (which a lot of great game developers started on) Apple was in a decline as a games platform and it wasn't an option for me.

I'm also a musician, and as my game development project progressed I started to devote more time to my music. I began building my studio and seeing what software and hardware worked well and what I liked. I'm now at the threshold of going full force with my music and really focusing on it, and I want to complete a powerful studio. I need to figure out my core and I'm trying to see if Apple is the best option. I have also have thought about tapping the Apple game market since great games are still fairly rare but the market is growing. So given all that, and also keeping in mind that a lot of people be it Apple or PC use their platform because it's what they started on and know, and i know PC, I need advice from those who have used both for a good clip of time.

I have never seen any comparison of PC vs Mac dealing with audio apps like Logic 5, or Cubase, or ProTools which sucks, of if you have let me know. I was checking out Logic 5 for a bit before it went Mac only, so I changed to Cubase (also because I think the Cubase audio sounded better, which now makes sense given its Nuendo roots). As deep as I got into both apps they seem to be on par. I recently went to MOTU's site to see DP which is also Mac only and that looks nice. And then there is ProTools LE, or maybe even an base line HD or Nuendo.

So please what is your feedback on these sequencers? Does ProTools HD just do everything that much faster, real time mainly, is that its claim to fame? And does LE really compare, or just share a name? I'm not sure the ProTools studio compatibility is as important as it once was since a lot more studios will work with wave files. Digital Performer also file compatibility with ProTools. So I'm assuming that PT excels in speed and does most everything real time, otherwise its just another sequencer?

What is your experience on performance? I read some Mac users claiming that Cubase isn't as tuned for Mac and the PC performance is much better now. Plus that Yamaha purchase has me wondering about the direction given what happen with Logic dropping PC.


Cost / Performance - Coming from PC this makes it very hard since given what I have already I can build a few High end PC's for the price of a Mac. That is why I'm trying to get some advice.

Also, VST Link under Cubase, any users out there? I have thought about this as a good reason for Cubase as I could use a Mac and my other PC. But again if other hardware systems like ProTools does everything much faster, real time, then it may not be worth it.

Anyways this is a Mac I was looking at, and then the PC I would get if I stay. Keep in mind, for me the PC price would be a bit less since I already have a fair amount of stuff, but I wanted an even keel.

Apple G5 Power Mac

1.8GHz PowerPC G5
256MB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - (Supports up to 4GB)
80GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra with 64MB DDR SDRAM, DVI and ADC ports
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
Mac OS X - U.S. English

Total = $1,500

Custom PC

AMD Athlon 64 3000
3GB PC3200 RAM
WD Caviar Series 250GB 7200RPM SATA Hard
GeForce FX 5200 Video Card with 128MB DDR SDRAM, DVI and ADC ports
Sony Internal 16X DVD+/-R / Double Layer/DVD+/-RW Drive
Microsoft Natural Multimedia Keyboard & Wheel Mouse Optical
Windows XP Pro
3U Rackmount Case

Total = $1,300

As you can see for 200 < then the G5 I can get 170GB more of HD space, a video card with 128MB of RAM, a rackmount case (Note: I could go with a standard case and save about $150, but if I go PC I'll have at least two so I want to get them racked to save space), and the BIG difference 3GB of RAM. Keep in mind I can buy parts over time, something Apple has totally failed allowing. On the up side that MiniMac is finally a nice step, but I doubt it would work for me in Audio, and likely not in Game Dev.

Is the 1.8GHz PowerPC really that much faster when dealing with Audio then the 2GHz AMD 64(aka 3GHz Intel CPU)? I know this is likely since NINTENDO and MS are using IBM to make CPU's for their console, just as Apple does for the Mac, but how much a gap is in question.

I haven't seen any real numbers outside the stupid Photoshop filter test. But I noted on Apple's site that the single 1.8 G5 vs the 3.4 Intel is only 20% > on machines with 2GB of RAM, and RAM is a big.. big part of performance so a 1.8 G5 with ONLY 256MB RAM might not have that 20% margin against a 2GHZ AMD(3GHz Intel) with 3GB of RAM;

So the G5 above is $2,224.00 with 2GB of RAM and a 250GB Hard Drive (its an extra $525 for the RAM and $200 for the Hard Drive upgrade.) This brings it up to the 20% lead as in Apples Benchmark. $1000 more! So I can have 2 of my Custom Machine for the price of one Apple, well for less given the extra PC parts I have, but for anyone else it would be about 300 buck more then the Apple for 2 Customs.

So that is the hard part for me to get past. And the fact that Apple is supposed to be all about music, but yet no benchmarks?

HELP! = ) Apple does a lot right, and so does Microsoft, but since Microsoft and Apple aren't likely to combine and bring the bests of the two companies together, I would like to have a Mac since I haven't had one around for extended time. ( I have an TRS 80 =) )

I hope all this information helps others. And please, mac cross overs, or the rich, do a comparison to get some hard numbers for us people who would like Macs but can't get over Apples tight customizing fist and the price it creates. It reminds me of Packard Bell who would charge 3k and throw in a lot of useless software and such. Also, I just read the standard warranty but didn't see it, does adding new parts yourself (ie breaking the seal) void the warranty? If not then I could customize the apple a bit using PC parts to help offset the cost.

A note since this will come up. I don't know what everyone else is has been doing to their machines but Window XP running Cubase, or Logic, doesn't Crash for me, and I don't have compatiblity problems with software or hardware. Granted I know more then your average user, but mainly it's about getting the right hardware, something PC manufactures don't always do, that is why a lot of people have issues in my experience. Also, given Windows install base and the fact that very fool has access to us a program to upload a virus hack a computer it is very open to issues on-line that Apple isn't. I have firewalls and all sorts of scaners and I haven't had a problem, but as a note my studio rig will be off-line unless required for some registration, otherwise I'll use one of my other rigs, so viruses and all the other such reason's Apples are better that I have seen don't apply. I'm after G5 performance info to warrent the price as well as how the various Sequencers work on the given platform and the benefits.

Thanks All.

Begin Rant

FOR MR JOBS - Maybe one of you hardcore Mac men can send him this. =)

I just want an Apple machine running OSX at a reasonable hardware price compare to PC. 2GB RAM upgrade shouldn't cost $525 when I can get 3GB of Corsair RAM for $300, and its all DDR RAM. that is just hardware monopoly, and everyone doesn't like MS for its software monopoly.

End Rant

Ce message a été modifié par designlord - dim. 13 mars 2005, 12:47.

[shaneblyth]

as an ex pc user of 15 years it is easy to look at a bunch of info and specs and price and comapre..
It is on e of those things that you really have to take the Mac for a "drive"

I always ask this question..
why do peoploe buy a Mercedes or a BMW or a rollsroyce or a ferarri.. they are all cars do basically the same thing.. but try to get one of these car owners to go back to a perfectly seemly good alternative.

I am not interested in going backs as my life is SOOO much more easier... I spent years sruffing about getting systems to work... I spent years making money out of it for others and doing their repairs and made alot of money on it..

Maybe this doesnt directly answer your question but i think it may point you in the direction of why we use an Apple these days.. I just sick of life being difficult.

I am more relaxed... My workflow is better.. I acehieve more and my girl friend doesnt here me screaming out another system and loves it cause i have more time to spend with here... I consider that well worth any amount of cash

[designlord]

Hello Shaneblyth,

Thanks for commenting. I have to admit that I may be a rare PC user in that even IRQ conflicts never kept me from playing the latest Sierra game when I was younger for very long, and with the latest OS and hardware quality I never have PC problems, unless it's DOA or buggy code which can happen given the volume that exist in the PC world. I have used a Mac at work durring my lunches to test them and they are nice.

I hope to get to do some actual music work on them at the local music shop (if they have current Macs) to see if I'm missing some cool feature. Overall, given the concept of the interface the PC and Mac use has been around since The Xerox Alto and the comom nature of the hardware and uses, I doubt I'll find any great systme difference beyond what I have heard. Stability (which on PC with the right parts has been problems for me) and Speed (this is the key difference I see, but maybe Apple isn't marketing the Mac right?)

I would like to find out as much as I can before I take that leap and buy one. It looks like I can return a desktop Mac within 15 days of purchase and have no restock fee. Who knows, I might be the first person ever to do a PC | Mac audio system comparison...

Keep em coming..

Thanks

PS - Also, I have a new edited post under the Mac hardware section that gets more to the point, I couldn't edit this post anymore.

Ce message a été modifié par designlord - lun. 14 mars 2005, 06:58.

[chappy]

Apss like Logic and ProTools HD were written promarily for Mac and secondly for PC.
While the PC has both caught up and surpassed the Mac in many ways. (especially for geeks (that's a compliment)) the Mac is still a better platformm for PRO music.
For home use and hobbyists, the PC is fine. PTHD3 acell/w Logic, sounds better than
Nuendo (I beta tested Nuendo) because the PCI cards are doing the work.
I've been using a G4 with PTHD for years (this week G5 dual2.5 w/6gig of ram arrives for Accel) and the G4 was fine. For native systems, Nuendo will work but to maximize it you will need a dual processor PC and a good summing device (ie:Dangerous 2 Buss).
I had 3 songs on Billboard charts last year and am biased towards the Mac so use your own ears and judgement.
my 2 cents.
chap

[The Guitar God]

until recently i've been using a mac with OS 8.6 I only stopped because after 7 or 8 years the hard disk decided to die. Before i got my new mac i would have definetly preferd to use my old mac over a Windows PC. I also used to have a Windows 98 PC (not sure about the exect specs, but a good computer at the time of release) and i couldnt stand it. It wouldnt stop crashing, and the amount of viruses it got!! I ended up throwing it out a good 4 years before the mac (the mac i bought earlier) So I'd always go for a Mac no matter what. I would probably go for my old mac instead of any new 'top of the range' PC anyway

[simmac]

I used PC for 10 years and I changed for mac 2 years ago.The best decesion in my life.Crash or not............The windows will be always the windows this is the problem.
I used the PC for music not for games and other stuff and I had a lot of problems.This is my experience.With the mac I never had problem especially with the osx.
About the hardware:
If I want to buy a real quality PC (every components are first quality) it will be more expensive than the Mac and I have to be almost a programer to deal with the windows.I'm a musicians not a computer guru.It's not important for me what is going on inside the operation system.I want to work in peace with my machine.
For me if the games are important I would buy a game console (xbox,playstation........) and I wouldn't use the computer to play.
I have the computer to work.
I don't know what to say about what to buy.Everything is individual.
Right now the Mac is much,much better for music and pro working.

Good luck

[nycsour]

designlord, your post is very interesting. I am also in the process of deciding which platform to build for my music production. one item that keeps me looking at the PC is emu emulator X studio with the 1810m audio interface. I've been using emu samplers for years and they are amazing.

I'm curious. You did not mention a motherboard for your custom PC. What did you have in mind? That would make it cost more wouldn't it?

good luck and keep us posted

[chappy]

You know, if you're making music for pleasure (hobbyist sounds insulting)
then why waste time having to learn a new system AND the software AND make music. Use the PC and have fun!
If you intend to share or collaborate with others, there's always a workaround but you will be part of a larger community if you go with the Mac. There are pro's who use PCs but they are usually in the position where someone else worries about upkeep
and bugs etc....
Have fun and good luck. My new G5 arrives tomorrow. I'll drop my ProTools HD3Accell in, Logic Pro, Live, Reason, Finale, all of my plugs and the Waves Diamond bundle and a host of others. I'm sure it's going to be as smooth as rowing the Atlantic in a blizzard.
enjoy every sandwhich,
chap

[designlord]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the input!

nycsour -

I too have looked at the Emu's 1820M. I was caught by "24-bit/192kHz converters (the same A/D converters used in Digidesign®'s ProTools® HD 192 I/O interface)" That is by far the best DAC I have seen in this price range. Right now I'm using a Terratec 88MT which I could expand, but for about the same price I could get much better DAC and the pre-amps. I would have to study it more, but from what I have read, for sub 1k price range it looks to be KING.

The Mobo I'm using now is EPoX "EP-8KDA3J" nForce3-250Gb and I would use it again likely, or the latest from them if I went 939 chip set, but no point right now. I didn't list a Mobo because the Mac didn't list one and I figured it would just clutter, but it's in the price. Rule of thumb is you can get a pretty top of the line PC mobo single cpu for about 86-140. I can get you a list of specs of what I was planning based upon my research if your interested.

chappy -

Writing music pleasure... ha! Well lyrics can be a pain. But really, now that I have a lot of my game technology (eg engine, editor, etc) pretty well done I have stopped coding and doing all game dev related stuff so I can focus on my music. I have a shit load of material, and I have been trying to guide it towards a overall style that I'm happy with and work out the lyrics and vocals and then I'm going to shop my demo to some labels and send it to some touring musicians I like to see if I can pick up any slots on their tour to get exposure (if only a few local gigs as they pass through).

So I'm ramping up to throw a lot of work behind it and see where it goes while I'm still young. I figured I can always program when I'm older, but music, well I have already burnt up a few years of my youth with coding.

So ideally I would like to be able to cut a pretty damn good album or demo in my studio. I also compose some music that is more game | film oriented and plan on doing more of that, outside rock. But I'm not looking to record anyone else, hell I have GB's of music that I want to expand and develop and that is on top of the new stuff, so even if 5/6 of it is crap I'll be plenty busy for a while with my own music. Usually I start with one component and build upon that a track at a time, the only expect ion is live recordings at which point I can see getting up to 16 or so channels. Though I haven't done any serious mixing, and what I do is mostly in the sequencer, and I use my 16ch board as a router for my current 8 channels of audio. So far I haven't in grained any system too deep. I could setup and record songs in Logic and switched to Cubase and I can do the same a know a bit more about it, but by far a master or using it all. So if I'm going to switch again I want to do it soon.

I know that in the end the gear doesn't mean shit. I like NIN for instances and trent reznor did the first album(or at least the demo, don't know if they re-recorded or just mixed and mastered his stuff?) which I love, and all that was done with a AppleIIe, MiniMoog and 808 and, an Emax mainly, from what I read. But again NIN, and yourself, and metallica and Don Davis (a movie composer I like, matrix etc) just about everyone is on a Mac and ProTools. I know its a sign of making it, but it must also be a great combination.

So what the deal is with ProTools? I got to play around with a ProTools system a bit, but recording just one or two tracks I couldn't tell it any differences from any other Sequencers. Like any powerful system I'm assuming that it won't look any different from Cubase or Logic until you start throwing a lot of audio and plug-ins at it. From reading the docs it looks like it allows massive numbers of audio tracks and plug-ins without using many CPU cycles or memory so the Host machine only has to process the ProTools TDM software. Is that about right? I think the main difference is the DSP, where my Terratec keeps the audio load off my computer all of my plug-ins on processed on the host while with ProTools that is all done on the HD's DSP chips?

What are you thoughts on ProToolsLE? I'm guessing it isn't much better then most of the gear out in the price range. After reading up, the RTAS plug-ins use Host cpu just like the Cubase or Logic plug-ins so it looks like that 002 Rack is just like any other 8in8out box. Like a small version of the 192IO, just an audio interface lacking any of the HD processing power.

Btw 3 songs on billboard charts, which ones? Are you a producer? Happen to be around the Los Angles area?

[gdoubleyou]

I own both platforms, in my opinon audio/midi/video are totally integrated into the Mac OS, The OS is transparent it never gets in the way.

From my experience you have to have more technical knowledge to keep a PC DAW up and running. More tweaking and upfront research is required.

I gave up trying to run SX on my Macs, it has the worst performance of all the Mac DAWS, I didin't get any joy from SX until I put it on my PC. So if you want to go with Steinberg it's best done on a PC.

Because of the integration all plugins are at system level and available to all audio and video apps that support Core Audio.

In the end it comes down to the software, the software I prefer for audio /video is Mac-only.

[nycsour]

designlord,

those specs you mentioned in your response to me would be greatly appreciated!

-nycsour

[chappy]

You may be down to a very simple plan that I advise anyone entering the arena.
Make a list of your needs and your wants. This is a serious task and you'll find conflicts. When it's done, there's your plan. You have a different skill set than most because you bring a strong computer background that might sway you into the PC world. If so, get Nuendo or Cubase.
If you go with Mac (I just put in another one with PT HD3Accell). A g5 with dual 2.5 proc. and 6/gig of ram. I put a bunch of other programs on it too. Wow!

If it's you doing your music, stay with what you know and throw PTLE with a Digi 002.
You can run Live and Reason and still get a decent track count if you load up on ram.
I have 4 PT systems because it keeps me in the loop and some are portable, some are
geared more for writing and my main system, along with Apogee 16x converters form the core of my main studio. So, I at least have a 'standard' (if there is such a thing)
here. It keeps me compatible with most other pro studios running mostly Pro Tools and Logic Pro as an auxillary program.
None of these will make you a better writer or musician but they will facilitate your ability to become both.
Yes, I am a producer and am occassionally out in LA. I live on the Other Coast
and produce some people you know and some that no one knows. I also write for TV and film and I love almost all of it.
best of luck,
chao

[chappy]

sorry.....that should have read:
If you go with Mac (parenthetical pride for new box) you will easily
plug in to the system with your background.
I've spent a lot of money on Macs and I always make it back but it's my job
so i don't have the time (or ability) to learn the nuances of a brand new, seemingly complicated system like a PC. The pro users that do swear by them are using Nuendo
or Cubase and there's a move in some circles to Pyramix ($80,000 for a multi track rig). They also have an assistant that runs the computer while they engineer the session with lots of outboard gear.

I also have an assitant who is handy on the Mac and brings a wide variety of skills with him. All of that stuff is great if you're making music. Otherwise, it's just an expensive dog and pony show.
good luck,
chap

[designlord]

nycsour

Here is a listing I compiled at newegg.com where I normally buy parts from. NOTE* The video card I was matching vs the G5, you may want to spring for an ATI x700 or such. The Western Digital Hard Drive list may not be their best, but in that price range you can find the model that is( like the WD2000PB and WD2000BB). It makes a good starting point anyways. And as always you'll probably want to set aside an extra $50-$100 for extra quite fans, depending on your setup. BTW, what are you goals musically?

EPoX "EP-8KDA3J" nForce3-250Gb Chipset $69.75

Rosewill nVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Video Card, 128MB DDR, 64-bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP, Model "RW5200-128D2" -RETAIL $49.99

AMD Athlon 64 3000+, 512KB L2 Cache 64-bit Processor - Retail $146.00

3 X Geil Ultra Series Value 184-Pin 1GB DDR PC-3200 w/ Blue Heatspreader - Retail $405.75

WD Caviar Series 200GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive Kit, Model WD2000JDRTL, Retail
$178.00

Microsoft Natural Multimedia Keyboard & Wheel Mouse Optical Value Pack PS/2
$30.50

Sony Internal 16X DVD+/-R / Double Layer/DVD+/-RW Drive, Model DRU710A, Retail
$88.99

Microsoft Windows XP Professional With Service Pack 2 -OEM
$147.95

I-STAR 3U Stylish Rackmount Server Chassis (Black) With I-Star 300W Power Supply, Model "D-300 Storm Series" -RETAIL
$177.50

[designlord]

Chappy,

Well I just got off the phone with Digidesign sales and he help answer my questions. Basically ProTools HD is the only hardware accelerated audio solution (at least of what we talked about, know anything else?). To put it in easy terms for anyone who plays games, think of it as software rendering Doom I or Super Mario vs hardware rendering like Halo or GTA (do a search for "sreenshots AND" Super Mario or Halo for a visual). ProTools LE is just an Digital to Analog Converter and offers Nil in the way of hardware acceleration, your host machine does everything else. Where as on a ProTools HD it has at least 9 chips that process audio and plug-ins leaving your Host Computer to... update the screen, more or less.

So I have decided that I'm going to shoot for a PT HD system. The Rep told me that performance is really good on either PC or Mac (Dual 1.8GHz 2GB RAM $2,724.00) with an approved PC like Dell Precision Workstation 670 (Dual 2.8GHz Xeon 2GB RAM $2,730.20), or proper selected quality parts if building a custom machine. I will have to get PTHD first and see if it works on my current system, and if not I might as well spring for a Mac above (san Apple RAM so about $2400) so I can develop games on it too. Using PTHD should make the Host machine speed a mute point so it's about my interfacing with the machine and cost/benefit (ie my Mac development).

So Chappy, this is what I'm looking at.

Pro Tools|HD 1
US List Price: $7,995
192 I/O
US List Price: $3,995

Dual 1.8GHz PowerPC G5
• 256MB DDR400 SDRAM: $1,898 (meager $100 work discount)
http://datamem.com G5 compt RAM 1GB = 159.00 (2x)
$2,200

SubTotal 14,190
Tax 1,028
_______________
Total $15,218

Or Maybe

Pro Tools|HD 1
US List Price: $7,995
96 I/O - though for a system I hope to have for at least 5 years 96KHz sample rate may not have the legs for the future. Any new thoughts Chappy given my direction?
US List Price: $1,995

Current PC

Total $10,723

Well it's a good thing I didn't go buy a new car after all! I still have plenty of time to change my mind while I get the money together, I rather only finance half of the cost and pay the rest in cash.

So Chappy do you only work via record companies, or do you do any indy albums? What style of music do you work with most? I might be able to use some input from a producer as I work my album together, if you would be willing.

As for Pyramix. I went to their website and it is the epitome of the old PC "engineers doing design" style website. I.E. Crap. 80K huh... Ha It better include a damn man servant to run the thing for me, do everything real-time and have a better appearance than that. I'm not going to look at cards and pay 80k. Makes paying 15k for PTHD much more palatable.

[lepetitmartien]

(yawn)

[CptAnalog]

I know how you feel. I learned DOS before being introduced to the Mac. I hated the GUI at first: at least DOS told me what it was doing instead of just some goofy wristwatch. But, enough history.
I'm a confirmed Mac user now. Even my ancient systems give less trouble than any PC I've ever used. And, OS 9.2 only uses 28 Meg of RAM for itself.
That said, I've found that Performer is a better MIDI app, while ProTools handles audio better. Heck, I still use Sound Designer for wave editing and mastering.
In my own perfect world I'd still be using Dyaxis, which only uses the Mac to run the graphics.

[designlord]

Hey Ppl,

So I have a question. What do you guys use Logic for when you are running ProTools, just the midi? And how do they interface together, are you exporting your midi and importing it into ProTools or just running it on a secondary machine and using it as a instrument (though you wouldn't be using all that nice hardware acceleration doing it that last way)?

Thanks

Ce message a été modifié par designlord - mar. 22 mars 2005, 14:22.

[ourmanflinty]

Logic allows you to use the PT hardware and native hardware at the same time, you run two audio engines at the same time within Logic and route audio between them..this way you get to have all your Logic instruments or recorded audio processed with AU or Logic plugs then routed out to your PT engine and further plugged and processed before being pumped out through your Mix or HD hardware...You can liken it to running RTAS and TDM plugs at the same time in PT software but it's more flexible.

[chappy]

Good choice. I have 3 PT sytems. a Digi 002 for a 'b' room, an MBox w/laptop for travel and PTHD3 Accell.
The HD system is light years ahead of the others even on system 9.2 (gone now).
Before buying the Digi hardware (average), check out the options from Apogee.
congrats!
chap

[CptAnalog]

I tried Logic once, and only once. I found the interface to be confusing and inefficient. But, I prefer one tool for each task. I use old Performer v4.2 for MIDI because it is better suited to the way I work, and it does what I need very well. I use ProTools for multitrack (only if I must), but I revert to Sound DesignerII for mastering: it simply works better and requires far less overhead from the Mac.
As I said, I prefer Dyaxis: a no nonsense, German interface. In short, it does what it's supposed to do without asking stupid questions.
Over all, assuming the musicians can actually play their parts, I would just as soon use razor and editall block. Screw the MP3 crowd, at least I get to hear it before the converters mangle my work.

[designlord]

Thanks for the info everyone,

ourmanflinty - So you can use Logic as the frontend of PTHD just like DP 4.52, and you don't even need to use the PT software? Does this also mean that all of the effects, mixing and instruments you use in Logic will be processed by the PTHD system just like TDM and HTDM plug-ins? That would be great if it were true! I have used Logic before Cubase SX and it looks better then PT software as far as interface Do you PT users find the PT software not as nice as Logic? I haven't used to long enough to know for sure about PT soft.

chappy - "Before buying the Digi hardware (average), check out the options from Apogee." Did you mean the Digi00 and Mbox when you note average? I have heard great things about the 2Trak, and if the above is right then I don't have to be as concerned about getting an MBox to get used to PT software, I can just use Logic or another frontend, unless you all think PT software it is really good software to use, but from what I have seen everyone running PT is using Logic or DP, leading me to think the PT software isn't that great.

CptAnalog - I was thinking about picking up an old reel to reel to record somethings with as I hear there are a few tricks that you can do with one that maybe you can't in digital as well. Any truth to that?

Thanks all. So many docs to read and without all your help I would still be months away from sorting through the mass amount of audio products out there. Chappy touched on another area that I need some advice on, so as soon as I do some research I'll be back so please keep the help coming!

[chappy]

I'll get back to you after sessions...........
chap

[chappy]

I have 3 PT systems. All systems (Logic, DP etc..) come with their own bag of tricks,
pluses and minuses. I've had PT since version 1.0 so I'm very familiar with it.
I use Logic Pro (taking my time) with TDM and without and I also use Live, Reason
and lot's of little apps. They all serve a purpose. Because of my work, I need to be in the biggest loop of users so my main paltform is PT. Almost every pro room has a version. I think the PT software is really improving and I love the way PT handles audio. It's a bit lighter on the midi side but I can write, record and edit a TV show in
2-3 days and stem my mix out to analog gear for finals and you would swear it was done in a huge studio.
Logic is more fun to write on because of the virtual instruments. Live is cool beacause of loops. Find the one that works for you and make some music.
The MBox is cool for portability but the mic pres suck. The 002 isn't much better but offers more. PTHD3 Accell is a blast but it ain't cheap.
With the Apogee X series converters, it sounds as good as 2" tape.
I never thought I'd say that but it's as good in some ways and better in others.
Now, make some music! Be happy to offer input on your project.
chap