Orchestration, Tips and Tricks for composers. Options

[jesshmusic]

Hello All!

I thought it would be good to have a topic devoted to the art of orchestration. Great things can be accomplished when composers put their brains together.

Especially in orchestration... certainly the most difficult aspect (and most rewarding) of composition.

Feel free to get it rolling. Here are a few tricks I have learned in my days:

1. Less is more. Don't be afraid to have smaller parts of the ensemble playing. I'm sure everyone know's this.. An orchestra playing with every instrument at full force the entire piece is boring.

2. Know instrument's limitations. The bassoons, for instance, will not be heard very well in loud sections of the orchestration with a lot of instruments playing, but they can still make for good filler. During the big choral part in Beethoven's Ninth, they are playing the fast ostinato pattern with the strings.

3. Listen to as much music as possible... especially modern. Analyze scores and see what the masters did. Research.

These are vague things. I hope many different composers will post specific tips and tricks they have picked up over the years. Instrumentalists can also use this topic to tell us composers what not to do. We sometimes can make life hard on you guys. (Especially Horn in F players!)


Jess Hendricks
Composer & Arranger

[toekneenose]

Actually, I'd be more interested in discussing how to make a sampled orchestra more nearly resemble the real thing. Having had considerable experience with arranging and orchestrating, my focus is on making my midi system sound like a live orchestra. Since most of the readers in this forum will be computer types, that might be the more valuable discussion.

There was a time when the samples were so poor that sampled orchestral instruments were severly limited. That seems to be changing as the samples, software, hardware and midi techniques improve.

Any takers? Or am I the only one?

[X4fer]

I'm getting started with orchestration and am a relatively new user of Logic. I'm moving into the field of soundtrack composition for film and video (I've been a video producer for about 14 years). So I'm interested both in the topics of using various orchestral instruments effectively, and in how to make sampled instruments sound good.

Looking forward to it!

Daniel Barber
New Context Productions
www.newcontext.com

[MrDee]

Hey all great topic - both sides so i'll add to both...

I'm studying compostion at uni atm and im in my second year so here's some things that i have figured...

1. Simple is good, complex is good - both is perfect.
2. Instruments are tools that make sounds - and more than what they were intended for. For example a violin can be bowed in so many different ways, brass can be flicked with fingernails to make interesting percussion sections, there are so many different aspects of the instrument which can be explored that not many ppl are willing to plunge into.
3. Learn to score section by section - ie strings, then upper brass, then lower brass, then woodwind, etc
4. There is more than simply 4|4, 3|4 and 6|8 time. Try doing 7|8 and 10|8 and so on they work so well!

And as for the computer side...
I'm currently using the EWQL Symphonic Library Silver Ed. and it's incredible. It does do quite a bit for you with respect to sounds placement and so on. But before i invested in that i was using reason's orckestor soundbank and the challenge in that was not only the placements but also the style (like the envelopes, velocity, etc etc etc). Bascially in reason what i ended up doing was creating templates of different styles - so fast string passages would have a much quicker envelope, while slow passages would have a more open one.

Hope this was some good!

[PoetryAnimal]

I also dabble in orchestration, all in Reason. The samples in the orkester soundbank are pretty damn good, but as far as "real" sounding goes, an effective reverb is mandatory!

[fastlanephil]

I checked out The Garritan Personal Orchestra. The weird thing about it is that velocity is routed to the mod wheel although you can change it to the keys for the piano. If you listen to the demos at thier site you understand why they do this. You get a much more realistic feel because you can swell the volume at whim and with percision. You can check it out at garritan.com. It does need a 733 mhz G4 minimum and as much RAM as possible.

[toekneenose]

Your right about Garritan Personal Orchestra (GPO). It's a well done set of samples. I've only just installed them in my Mac. I've played with them a little, but I have yet to find the time to sit down and create a composition because I have yet to learn how to use Logic. I guess the term "newbie" applies, even though I've worked as a composer and arranger for years.

Still, from what I've heard so far, the GPO samples should do nicely. My challenge will be to learn how to use samples and thier dynamics to score rather than live musicians. I'm looking forward to the process.

I marvel at some of the music I hear that has been created with samples. Learning those tricks, I imagine, will be somewhat similar to learning how to write for a real orchestra. Learning how to do a new thing, or an old thing differently, is always the challenge.

Any composers out there who care to share some tips and tricks they've learned to create orchestral pieces using samples? Any suggestions for a really great sounding set of choir samples to go with GPO?

[MrDee]

There is an outstanding choir set out - i think its a bit complex to use though and im not sure of the name - its something on the lines of 'Voices of the Apocalypse"

[Ewchymlaen]

Voices of the Apocalypse is an outstanding package. I haven't used it, it's quite expensive, requires a Gigasampler - which I don't have - and I haven't had enough opportunity to use it, but I have heard the demos. It samples every syllable at all octaves across the register allowing you to create very realistic sounds and words.

As far as using an orchestra within Logic, it's very difficult to sound authentic. A lot of attention must be paid to velocity, note value and envelope. Don't rely on reverb too much, it can swamp the overall mix and degrade the natural sound of the instrument, but it is vital in adding texture and size to your piece. Learn how to use Logic's hyperdraw, that will help.

[X4fer]

I have a pretty basic question on this. I have Logic and haven't used sample libraries other than the ones included in Logic itself. Garritan Personal Orch. seems like a good candidate for me. I'm curious how to get the range of sounds and articulations out of a violin when I'm using a keyboard to drive it. Where are the lines between using, say, a bowed violin sample vs. a plucked sample, using the parameters you can alter with the keyboard (e.g. attack, velocity, duration), and altering envelope characteristics.

Just trying to visualize this in general. I'm sure that this could get pretty hairy in extreme circumstances, but I'm just wanting to have a reasonable level of control over things that one might reasonably want to do within the context of a piece with some variability in it.

TIA,

Daniel

[musicart]

A few tips for orchestrating with virtual instruments:

- Record every voice separatelly, for example instead of treating the woodwinds or brass as a block, record each part separately, this will result in a more natural phrasing.

- One of the hardest things to emulate from the real orchestra is the articulations between the notes, fot example if you have a fast scale assigned to the strings for example, reduce the velocity of every other note by 20% more or less, this will accomplish a more realistic preformance.

- For the string sections record a track for the first violin, and then record another first violin track with a different sampler sound (record it again, don't copy it) and try to detune it a bit, try not to quiantize, small imperfections in pitch and tempo is what gives thickness to the sound of a real string section. Try that your "detune" sligltly modulates in time. Be carefull not to exagerate.

- Know the instrument ranges and limitations, know the spacial position of the instruments in the orchestra, and try to emulate the panning. You can even go beyond, for example if you have three channels of first violin, you could pan them to cover a broad spectrum, lets say from 7 o'clock to 9 o'clock. Cover and area instead of one point.

- Use your controlers to add life and expression to each phrase.

- Very important point: A flute performing inside an orchestra will not be heard with the same "brightness" as a solo flute player in a pop of jazz song. In an orchestra the individual sounds will have a tenedency to sound "dull" (at least to pop or rock standards). If you trim the high frecuencies of some instruments this will diminish its presense and move them to the back, making them easier to melt into the whole orchestral "sound". So if you have to eq., try trimming first instead of adding. LIsten to a real orchestra to see my point.

- Treat reverb with care, a good reverb is a most. Usually 2 seconds of rev in a medium hall will give you a good starting point. You should have an idea of the space that you want to emulate and its reverb time, it will also depend on the style of the music, and if the orchestra is alone or with other non orchestral instruments, in which case it works better with shorter rev times.

Alex Rodriguez
Legato Productions.

[BlazingMagnum]

I think it's partly a case of showing some discretion when using virtual or synthetic instruments. To pull off a convincing (traditional) piece of music when using electronic means - I find that it's usually best to stick to certain instruments for the lead sections, and use pads & synth'd sounds for the subtler & more ethereal parts.

Piano samples, xylophones, koto's etc, all work very well, however I've still never EVER heard a particularly convincing individual guitar sample - in any studio or package - aside from directly sampled licks, which I personally regard as recorded sections of audio rather than useable notes.

I think that using inappropriate instruments - simply because there is a cheap sample included in the software or hardware you happen to be using - only serves to weaken your compositions, and serves only to make otherwise interesting pieces sound like those dreadful free 'Movie Score' CDs available on the fronts of magazines - which usually contain good scores, re-performed by someone with bad taste.

[elipio]

Hello, I'm new around here but this thread is of great interest for me.
I'm about to invest in either QL/Eastwest Orchestra version Gold or VSL. There's a big price difference and I'v heard that VSL is superior in quality. But I produce pop music that only ocasionally needs good orchestral sounds so I'm thinking of going with the cheapest of the two...
Has any of you used any of the two products?
Would really appreciate you comments...
Pete

[thedomus]

I have been using VSL for a while, and recently purchased EWQLSO Gold to compliment it, I have to say the latter is superb for quick orchestral compositions. The sections are already panned / located in the right spot, and the natural reverb of the recording hall sits very nice with arrangements. It is very good quality and easy to use.
If tou need a well priced soloution then EQLSO has to be the most competitive , especially at the mo! - it's half price!!

[elipio]

Thanks for your thoughts, thedomus...

[fastlanephil]

I purchased Philharmonic Miroslav and am just starting to experiment with it. It looks to be really good for getting a big sound up quickly and the instruments are all placed for an orchestral setting. The playing on many of the samples are quite emotive. The full symphony patches do sound a bit synthy but are good for a quick orchestration or maybe live back up playing as it is stand alone also. It includes a very nice built in reverb that uses new technology.

Also picked up Art Vista's Virtual Grand Piano when it was $99 and was a great first piano. My problem is I spend too much time just playing it now because it sounds so good. I like the Keith Jarret preset for just playing.

I'm going to try the Synful demo pretty soon. From posts it looks like it still needs some work and is pretty expensive just for solo instruments but it is probaby the future of virtual instruments. It's hardware requirements are unbelievably low. I think it also has light copy protection.

I have found that virtual instruments can get pretty muddled if you try to use too many. It's a limitation of virtual vs real instruments though I have heard a piece that went back and forth from real to virtual and you couldn't really tell one from the other but who knows what trickes he used. But for me this isn't a goal, I just want to get a good sound. They sure have come a long way since the Roland and Emu synth modules but the copy protection sucks.