Cubase Vs. Digital Performer., Vs. Options

[The_Circle]

I am just confused which software is best for Midi,i am working with pro-tools digi002 for audio but i need a good Midi sequencer and i am stuck in between cubase and digital performer..Any hints??

[surrealka]

I'm not very familiar with cubase, so I can't comment on that, but I will give feedback on Digital Performer. I'm a keyboardist/composer, and I work with MIDI extensively. DP4 is my main sequencer (I use Reason a fair bit as well). I find DP4 to be very stable and very intuitive to use. MIDI routing is very simple, and you can easily edit any paramater within its sequence window. I've used other DAW programs before, but found DP the most easy to navigate, yet also as powerful as anything out there. Downsides: no VST support (though you can get wrappers to use VST's), Tech support is somewhat marginal (though the documentation that comes with DP is great). Upsides: easy interface, good MIDI implementation (Performer, the predecessor to DP was one of the best MIDI sequencers arround, for years), good suite of effects that come with it. Also, it does Audio Units, so as more plugins are made for that format (which Logic also uses), I'm sure the lack of VST support will become less important.

[The_Circle]

I think it's a bit hard to compare between these softwares specially if you include logic!its like comparing a mercedes,a BMW and a Audi!what do you think?cause alot of people recomended Logic,i don't know yet which one should i go for.To be honest what really interested me in cubase,its compatability with rex files and converting any audio to a rex file adapting it to any tempo.i have 2 questions though (hope i am not a pain in the ass!)you said something about wrappers to convert any vst to digital performer or something like that,how does it work?
and 2nd thing is i have been having problems with the buffer size,at some point you have to increase your buffer size to 1024 so the software can work smoothly but you always get this terrible delay!(pro-tools,dp etc..)any solution for that??

[jetcity]

Hey there.

I use DP 4.12 and love it. It's very easy to use, and easy on the eyes too for long sessions.

One thing you might want to consider is that DP (and Logic) is Mac-only. Cubase is on both platforms, and the Mac version always lags behind the PC version in terms of performance and bug fixes.

Another thing to consider is the learning curve. DP is musician-centric and easy to learn coming from Pro Tools. Logic and Cubase are both powerful, but you have to think more like a programmer, especially in Logic.

As far as REX: You can drag and drop REX files into DP and they will stretch to whatever tempo you set. However, to make REX files, you'll still need a beat slicer like ReCycle.

As far as latency/delay: There are only two ways around it. One way is track at 64 or 128 buffer -- but you can't use too many instruments or effects.The other way is hardware monitoring: Some audio interfaces(like MOTU) allows you to monitor your record-enabled tracks directly from the hardware, instead of going round-trip through the Mac. However, you won't be able to hear any plugins, because the sound you hear is not going through the plugin path.

The way I get around all this is freezing tracks (available in DP, Logic, Cubase). I have two mixing board layouts (easy to switch in DP): One with effects, one without. I mix at 1024 with effects, then freeze everything to a stereo track, switch to the empty mixing board at 128, add some tracks, switch back to the effects mixing board, etc. DP makes this easy.

Good luck,
Pete

Ce message a été modifié par jetcity - sam. 13 mars 2004, 21:18.

[The_Circle]

Well i guess i should consider dp and give it a try although still not familiar with it and with its capabilities,still didn't try(or exactly know)freezing tracks or openening 2 windows with 128 buffer size and another with a 1024 but i will try that.i should also try to get recycle and create rex files.Do you have any clue how or where can i download some good rex files i kind of need to update my library.
thanx
Hassan

[sethjacquay]

Back the snack up boys!
Anyone, who says DP 4 is easy to use is...well...on crack.

Not that it is impossible to use, but compared to Reason,
Garageband, or any other sequencer I have used it has
a HIGH learning curve.

Granted it is VERY stable and extremely powerful, but
it's interface takes a bit of getting used to. It has
a lot of windows that handle a myriad of different
options, this alone makes learning DP4 a bit daunting.

All that said, I like DP 4 quite a bit, after several hours
of figuring out how things work. It has never crashed, has
great AU support, works with every other DAW I have and
has some great built-in effects.

But if you are using something truely simple like Garageband &
are making the leap to DP4 it can be difficult without proper training.

I just don't want people thinking that DP 4 is super easy and that
using it is second nature, because it isn't.

[td3k]

"i am working with pro-tools digi002"

Why not use the MIDI sequencer in ProTools LE? You already own it with your 002 and it won't cost you a penny.

But if you insist, Cubase (in my opinion) is a VERY powerful MIDI sequencer + ReWire + VST Instruments and effects galore. It is a much more open system than DP.

[sethjacquay]

td3k,

Just out of curiosity, why do you feel Cubase SX is a more open system?

Because of VST Support?

DP 4 supports Audio Units, Rewire 2.0, works with almost any hardware,
and has DAE support that enables DP 4.12 to serve as a
front end for Pro Tools systems.

I am curious as to how your feel Cubase is more open?
As I haven't used it, I am wondering if this is just your opinion
or is it based on the VST Support? Which for $70 can be added to DP 4.
http://www.audioease.com/Pages/wrapper/wra...rapperMain.html

What makes it more "open"? I am interested as I don't think Cubase supports
Audio Units yet? (even though they stated that they will eventually add that support)

http://mixonline.com/ar/audio_motu_digital...al_performer_5/

[rickenbacker]

Steinberg promise a lot of things for Cubase on the Mac. Either they take forever to arrive and then barely work or they never arrive at all. Check the Mac side of the cubase.net forums and meet a very disgruntled band of users.

I like SX, but I abandoned it for Logic because there are too many errors and bugs in SX. Maybe version 2.0 is better, but I resent paying for bug fixes - that's one of the main grudges Mac users hold against Steinberg at the moment.

I'd say Logic is a very open system, too - maybe more so than DP4. It supports all the same formats and protocols, plus it'll support Apple Loops in the 6.4 update.

[sethjacquay]

Rickenbacker,

Can you confirm the support of VST instruments and effects in Mac OS X using Logic?

I am very interested in giving Logic a try, but as far as VST support goes the tech specs
state the following:

Up to 64 Audio Instruments for insertion of Emagic, Audio Unit (Mac OS X) and VST2 (Mac OS 9) virtual instruments

Just trying to learn more...

[pdgood]

Let's get specific. DP does not have individual undo of quantizing. That's a big ommision. Say you record a drum part via midi, then you quantize the whole thing. Then suppose you play it back and it's OK everywhere except in one place in the middle of the song. You cannot undo the quantizing in that area without also undoing every other note after that point in the song. Even Cubase VST32 can unquantize a single note- even days later after you've made dozens of other edits. You can always return to the unquantized state. That's pretty cool. However, Steinberg who makes Cubase has the worst tech support of any product I've ever purchased. Whoever said that their forums were filled with angry users was right. That should way heavily in a vote, I would think.

Logic which has loyal followers is known to be hard to learn. It has been purchased by Apple who may simplify it, but they currently offer no crossgrade and upped the price to almost $1000. I'm also hearing from my dealer that Apple is not providing them with the training and info that Logic did in the past.

In my opinion, there is not a Mac sequencer currently available that is stable, has good tech support, is user friendly, and has the features I need. But you're probably someone like me that just loves sampling and midi and sees it as the future of music and so you have to choose SOMETHING. Tough choice. Let's hope these forums are a wake-up call to manufacturers who are not really offering us very good options.

[rickenbacker]

Apple have not simplified Logic with Logic 6 Pro/Express, that's true. But as a Logic user, I'm glad about that. I don't want something that looks and works like Garageband - it wouldn't be a fraction of the program that it is. Once you get into the program and understand the (fair enough, occasionally baffling) concepts involved, everything makes a lot of sense and there's almost nothing you can't do.

As for the price, the Pro version has only increased by a few hundred dollars, for which you get absolutely every synth Emagic have made to date. Altogether, bought separately, they'd cost you thousands of dollars. If you buy Pro, you need never buy another plug-in again - unless you personally want to. There's certainly nothing missing.

I'd also say that Logic is as stable as any computer music app can get. Tech support have always been very prompt and courteous to me the few times I've e-mailed them, plus they have the InfoWeb online resource for registered users.

The quickest way to get an answer is to post on the Sonikmatter.com Logic forum boards - that's an excellent resource. The quickest way to learn how to use Logic is to read the manuals, buy Logic Audio Workshop by Dave Bellingham and just start playing! It's not half as difficult as folk make out.

As for Sethjacquay's query about VST plugs, no, Logic does not support them natively at all. But using FXpansion's VST-AU adapter (costs about £50 or so), you can use anything. I've converted plenty of VSTis and FX - including complex synths like Spectrasonics Atmosphere, Trilogy and Stylus and LinPlug's Albino and high-end FX like GRM Tools ST bundle - with no problems. Many plug-ins debut as VST only, but then get updated as AudioUnits, too. Some even debut as AU only, such as Novation's V-Synth and BassStation. Frankly, Logic not running VST is a total non-issue.

Hope all that helps!

[sethjacquay]

The Circle,

My last post on this topic.

I don't think anyone has helped clear anything up for you.

So let us summarize, shall we:

1. Logic - is difficult to learn (AU, VST(using wrapper))
2. Cubase - has poor support (VST, AU(in a future update))
3. DP 4 - doesn't have undo quantize on selected area (AU, VST(Wrapper), MAS)

The all have support for slighty different plug-in formats(AU, VST, MAS),

but all are Rewire 2.0 compatible and contain some sort of DAE(Digidesign Audio Engine)
support.

They seem to have relatively loyal followings and must be capable enough to get
the job done. Does anyone use two or all three all the time???

Don't buy into this ridiculous "open system" argument because not
one poster has defined the term "open system".

Can you write plug-ins for all of them? Yes!
AU for DP 4 and Logic.
VST for Cubase.

Each has a long list of software and interface standards
they claim they are compatible with.

This is like arguing which breakfast cereal is better.

Cocoa Pebbles has more chocolate.
Fruit Loops has that fruitastic flavor.
Frosted Flakes has the most sugar on each flake.

In the end, it is a matter of taste and preference.

So picking one of the above 3 probably won't destory your life forever.
Try the demos and do your own research.
How many of these offer demos???

All are capable sequencers that have been around for a while.

[The_Circle]

Well i totally agree that picking one of the 3 is a matter of taste,its not like one of the softwares is professional and the other isn't,i think all 3 softwares are pro. and it's the matter of taste and what plugins you want to use..so start digging about compatability.
I don't believe that cubase offers a demo.Don't know about others but i shall look it up.
And by the way pro-tools is good for audio but it sucks in midi,sometimes its not accurate in quantize plus its definitly not as powerful as other 3 in midi.

[editbrain]

geez! if you want a product that works and is STABLE. choose logic. it isn't hard to learn. it is very customizable. probably the most intuitive/powerful of all the daw's. has everything you need to compose, cut, sample, mix, master, blah, blah, blah. there probably isn't one thing in music production you could think of that couldn't be done in logic.

i know that everyone has there opinion. i know that not everyone likes milk with there cookies, but it is hard to believe. saying that it is hard to believe that there is even a choice when you throw logic into the mix with these other apps.

apple pissed off a lot of my fellow musicians when they bought emagic and discontinued the windows platform. i escaped that one cause i use mac, but now they are boggled. they don't have a decent app to make there music on. so i guess they are stuck with logic 5 forever, or until these other apps start to compare.

logic is the one. the only one that will do what you want when you want it. i have had 18 hour recording sessions with recording and mixdown. no glitches.

choose you will, but choose wisely!

happy recording,
editbrain

Ce message a été modifié par editbrain - mer. 17 mars 2004, 20:52.

[surrealka]

Two responses:
First to The Circle: the VST-AU wrapper essentially looks at all your VST plugins and then converts them to be used as Audio Units (which DP and Logic use). The first time you open DP after that, it examines them, and then you can use them like any other plugin in DP. I've not had much occasion to use VST's (the plugins that DP comes with do most of what I want), but it seems to work flawlessly.

Secondly, to sethjacquay:
When you say that anyone who considers DP easy to use must be "on crack", and then compare it to programs like Garage Band and Reason, frankly, I think it's comparing apples and oranges. GB is a consumer level program, not a professional system. Of course it's going to be easy to learn. Apple generally markets systems to both pro and consumer level users (iMovie vs Final Cut Pro, Garage Band or Soundtrack vs. Logic, etc.) Just as no one who's really serious about video editing would limit themselves to the low-end, but highly easy to use iMovie, I can't imagine anyone who's really serious about computer-based recording and MIDI would want to work with Garage Band. And Reason, though a wonderful program, is not by any means comparable to the kind of DAW software we're talking about. Reason has no audio i/o, no capability of 3rd party effects, no MIDI out, and so on. It's a totally different beast.

Ultimately, I agree that many of these issues are more about personal taste than anything else. I do find DP easier to use than Logic (by far!), but there's always going to be a learning curve. I do agree with the complaint about MIDI quantization, though it is not by any means a deal-breaker given all of the other benefits of DP.

One more thing about REX files: according to people who went to the recent NAMM convention, Motu is planning a Recycle/REX stlye editor in it's next major upgrade, which will allow for real time manipulation of audio loops in the way that Reason does with REX files. That's something I'm eagerly awaiting.

[The_Circle]

Well thanks editbrain,
i think i shall consider getting logic cause i have heard alot about it being the most powerful in all of them.But i just have a question what about the compatability of VST plugins and Logic??And other plugins..i guess it will do run perfectly with logic..doesn't it?

[pdgood]

Do any of you Logic users know if it has the individual un-quantize feature I mentioned earlier? Also, I've read that it has midi scrub, which is impressive if it's done right. How does that work in Logic? For example, in some sequencers (the old Opcode for instance) you just held down one button and then you could drag the cursor over the music at any speed and hear playback of all the notes. That's a huge timesaver at locating problems. CubaseVST doesn't have scrub, you have to point at and click on every individual note. Ugh. You can reset the tempo to some very slow setting and then set it back, but that's a much slower way to go about it.
I would also be interested to know if CubaseSX has these same features.
One last thing in making a choice....compatability with existing software should be a factor. For example, I use the Kontakt sampler and its forum is full of bug reports between it and various sequencers. If you're looking to buy I would suggest reading as many forums as possible. That can save you lots of headaches.

[sethjacquay]

Well...they are "on crack" aren't they?

I see your point, surrealka, but I was using
hyperbole to make mine.

[surrealka]

He he!

[gdoubleyou]

Steinberg has good ideas but fall short on executing them.
They have lost their focus on their DAWs, and appear to have too many produts for the available staff to service.

After being a longtime Cubase user I moved on while making my transition to OSX. Mostly because of lack of confidence that they could deliver what they claim. I had hope for improvement after they were purchased by Pinnacle, but the evidence points towards a worsening situation.

Check out the pain at cubase.net, the current controversey is about Steinberg not acknowledging Panther incompatibilities.

So if you want a user experience where you feel like you are paying to be a beta tester, by all means choose a Steinberg product.

[editbrain]

my goodness....i did not know that cubase was pinnacle now!
that is one reason that i moved to mac...hehe

i was working on a video (dvd) for my mom of some old tapes and such. well i had this beef'd up windows machine. 2+ghz 2gb ram sata drives. i was using pinnalce studio dvd editor software. well it kept locking up, locking up, locking up.

i had ordered a laptop (windows) that was going to arrive any day now. i was like HELL NO! NO MORE!!! i canceled the order for the laptop went to the bank drove to the apple store, bought a laptop came home finished my dvd in about an hour. YIPPEEEEEE!!!! i had been using linux for awhile too, so OS X was like a dream come true. having the terminal with the multimedia ability.

Now that i know that Pinnacle runs Cubase.....WELL DEFINATELY A HELL NO!!!!!

oops....


happy recording,
editbrain

[The_Circle]

surrealka,Maybe Logic is a bit harder to get along with although dp might be easier to use,but thats not the point..The point here is which one you will pick if you are choosing between both,disregarding that there will be a learning curve plus that there will always be a learning curve!I mean i have been temporarely using pro-tools for midi and now i will get one of these 3 softwares and whatever the software i will pick,there will definitly be alot to catch!
Dont know..I am considering seriously of bying logic,Any idea if there is a demo version i can try??

[surrealka]

You're absolutely right, and I hope I haven't misrepresented myself about Logic; my sole complaint is that it seems like a very confusing interface. I have lots of friends who work with it and are quite happy with it. Likewise, I'm very happy working with Digital Performer. Ultimately, we're debating about several really great products. Everyone's going to have a personal preference, but basically that's what this all boils down to: personal preference. Good luck with your decision.

[Panopticon]

Well, count me as another crack abuser who finds DP4 easy to use and intuitive. I would say it only took a learning curve of about a week until I was up to full speed and productivity after switching from a Cubase SX based PC. Now I've been at it for three months, and while I find myself occasionally referring to the kilopage manual (which is also the best software manual I've ever used); 98% of the project is focused on the music instead of trying to get my head around the software.

But I still think the question of Logic vs DP4 is kind of silly. They'll both get the job done, and in spades. See if you can find a couple users in your area and buy 'em a six pack to show you your way through for an hour or two, then pick whichever has the structure more in tune with your workflow. Now, if you're going to be having engineers and other producers come in who are used to a Logic front end on a PT system, THAT would make a difference. And the other thing is price: the Logic Pro package sure is sweet. But then again for about the same price ($100 more) you can get the DP4 crossgrade, Mach 5, and Altiverb; which is a fairly comparable system. You get a couple more virtual instruments with the Logic package; but other than that it's a reasonable comparison. I use MOTU hardware, so decided to go the DP4 route; and I'm very pleased. Really either program is excellent, it's just a matter of preference. Hell, if you can't get your hands on the programs first, just pick your favorite GUI (lol)....

[rickenbacker]

I'd say the Logic Pro package offers over and above just a "couple more virtual instruments", as Panopticon puts it.

Let's see: the ES1 and ES2 synths, the EVB3 Hammond, the EVD6 Clavinet, the EXS24 MkII sampler, the EVP88 electric piano, the EVOC20 vocoder, and the Space Designer convolving reverb, all of which sound fantastic. Plus of course you still get Logic and its 60-odd FX plug-ins. And you say the DP4 crossgrade still costs more?

Must be all that crack you're smoking...

[The_Circle]

Hehe..it seems that most of whoever is in this forum is on crack!
Anyways..For me i would say that logic would give more but still..are all standard plugins compatible with logic??

[gdoubleyou]

Maybe I have more experience but I didn't find DP4 or Logic6 any easier/harder than other DAWs.

I was a former Studio Vision Pro user, after it's death I vowed to never be dependent on ONE music app.

You can actually have them both, I used SVP for a crossgrade for DP $369, and I purchased the Logic Big Box.

It actually took me longer to get my head around DP, because of the non-standard window navigation. I still hit the close window button, when I'm expecting a dropdown menu. It just takes time to get familar with the interface.

Currently, I give the nod to Logic for AU integration, CPU friendliness, and the excellent Logic synths. I haven't fired up my midi hardware in nine months.

Don't get me wrong I DO LIKE DP, just think it needs one more update to get it up to snuff.

[pdgood]

No one is taking the $$$ into account. For those of us who purchase legit copies this is a factor. I'd like to switch too (I'm using Cubase VST32) but the pricing varies a great deal. For example, I can upgrade to SX for $200, crossgrade to DP4 for $300, but the only way I can get to Logic (according to my dealer) is a direct purchase - no crossgrade available. The pro version is now around $1000. So while I'd like to have Logic, I can't afford that option.
Also, features are really important once you get working. Do any of these have midi scrub? I know Logic Pro does, but not sure about the others. VST does not.

[surrealka]

pdgood,
yes DP has MIDI scrub. And good AU integration as well.

[gdoubleyou]

SX2 just had an update released, check Cubase.net for the reaction.

Sometimes you have to pay to get peace of mind.

One of the biggest gripes I had with Steinberg was the constant changing of the audio engine.

Cubase4 couldnot load cubase3 sessions, cubase5 couldn't load cubase4 sessions, SX1 couldn't load cubase5 sessions. SX2 added Nuendo's audio engine... guess what. In all cases you could bring in your audio regions, but all automation, panning and effects settings did not transfer. So to use previous sessions on the new products required a remix.

Their competition doesn't have that business practice, new versions of logic, DP, and Pro Tools cna load previous sessions with all mix settings.

As I got more clients the time/money was not available to remix projects I had already been paid for. So i had to make a business decision to move on.

May not be a BIG issue if you are only doing personal recording.

[newrigel]

If your a proficient performer (keyboadist) you really don't need the power DP, or any audio sequencer gives for MIDI editing... but if your like me (I can't play a piano to save my life) a singer songwriter, then the editing capabilities of an audio sequencer should be a must have for your compositions. But really.. it just depends on what you feel comforable with, and how you work. All these products will achieve a result it just depends on if the result is easily attained and assimilated by your ways of working on a composition.

[surrealka]

I found this good article comparing different sequencers. Hope it helps.

http://www.tweakheadz.com/Sequencer2.html

[newrigel]

SX2 just had an update released, check Cubase.net for the reaction.

Sometimes you have to pay to get peace of mind.

One of the biggest gripes I had with Steinberg was the constant changing of the audio engine.

Cubase4 couldnot load cubase3 sessions, cubase5 couldn't load cubase4 sessions, SX1 couldn't load cubase5 sessions. SX2 added Nuendo's audio engine... guess what.  In all cases you could bring in your audio regions, but all automation, panning and effects settings did not transfer. So to use previous sessions on the new products required a remix.

Their competition doesn't have that business practice, new versions of logic, DP, and Pro Tools cna load previous sessions with all mix settings.

As I got more clients the time/money was not available to remix projects I had already been paid for. So i had to make a business decision to move on.

May not be a BIG issue if you are only doing personal recording.

If you archive a session its a HUGE deal because out of the thousand or so parameters in an app you will NEVER be able to emulate the same mix... What's the use of DAW technology if you don't have total recall of your final production master? DP has the greatist bang for the buck in the industry... if I had a commercial facility I would only use DP since it's backwards compatible with Pro Tools. The other "ones" don't!