Hi,

I'm getting ready to buy a new computer for my future studio. After emailing, posting messages in forums, long considerations etc. it looks like I will go in the direction of a PC.

Why? I talked to an employee of Apple, and he told me that if I buy a G4 today, I should be ready to sell it when new processors come out at the end of 2003.

I wanted to ask Mac users, what do you think about this new, what I think they call "G5" and what is it going to mean for you? Will your current software and recording hardware work with the G5?

Also, how is Cubase SX with OSX?

Please elnighten me, I might still change my mind and go Mac if it makes sense.

Petra

As in any area of computing, you have to choose the software tool first, then the computer and OS, and any other equipment that it works with.

Cubase was brilliant when it first came out on Atari and Mac, but in my opinion it's lost alot of ground. If you go for PC, I should imagine its quite appropriate though.

Protools from Digidesign is used by lots of professionals in the music business and has been considered the best, but midi users seem to think its a bit lacking. If you don't just work with audio, and need midi, I should have a look at Logic as, judging from what people say on the French side of this site, I've a feeling that it's got more potential.

I'm a songwriter and use a G3, and its perfect for my OS9 Protools/Mbox setup. I'll only go for another computer when I get new software or an important update that requires it. Perhaps in a couple of years I'll get a G4 17" ibook.

I've had macs since 1984 and felt the need to change every 5 years, although they still worked fine! I've kept my last mac for everything besides music.

My son was brought up on Macs but got a PC because he wanted to borrow his friends' computer games (he says it was because it was more appropriate for the apps he thought he would have to use in his particular profession). I must add that it was also a little cheaper than an "equivalent" Mac, but it wasn't long before he had hardware problems.

In the music area the Mac and related audio equipment seem to be quite superior - most serious music amateurs use Macs (I may be biased there), and most professionals use Macs (that's the truth). If you only need lowish quality sound then you could go for the latest PC, but with a second hand G3 on OS9 you'd get much better quality anyway.

It all depends what you want. Some people would prefer to wait for a G6 because its the technical specifications they are after, and they don't need to actually do any serious work with a computer now.

I suggest you go and see your Apple salesman's boss, and tell him he should be more careful who he employs.

Macs and their apps have always been excellent, but although Apple is also great at marketing, they have always been very bad at the retailer end (at least in France). I once had to go for PCs for a big order for a new project at the university, simply because the Apple retailers didn't give me any help (perhaps I should have shaved more often and worn ties). The PC retailers bent over backwards to help. Many other departments followed my lead and Apple ended up losing a lot of their most faithful clients at our university. I think it was the same scenario elsewhere.

Still, if you want quality, and your project is not something nobody's done before, you shouldn't make your choice from what a salesman says.

You're quite right to use the internet for information and music makers' opinions. Beware of salesmen and sales hype.

Ah, just a thought: If you ask PC users opinions, they may not tell you of the problems they have for music, because they may think problems are normal. Mac users tend to be more demanding.

You mention IBM. I can't resist saying that IBM are quite aware they lost market share partly because of their snobby sales policy (also, right from the start of 'PCs', they couldn't be bothered writing an OS, so they just used a rather bad and 10 year old DOS from a bloke called Bill Gates). Oops, I'm going to get told off by the moderators - that's off topic

Almost forgot: tell us what you think you'd like to do with your future set up, and we can advise you. I don't have experience with OSX yet, but it looks quite promising for music. Anyway other members will advise you.

Petra I think you should browse a little here in the beginners forum as some of your questions have already been overviewed there. Also check the OSX forum on the cubase SX issue. If a peculiar question has no answer, feel free to post a new subject on it. Easier to get answers to a single question. Remember you have other options on the mac than Cubase, DP and Logic (subsidiary of Apple now, think of it) are the pro contenders with Protools.

On the G5 or the next generation processor that we are desperatly waiting for SOME time now. I can't you the agenda of Apple. But one thing is sure, they can't wait till next year to provide us a quantum leap in power, or they will loose customers. they have to push the accelerator on the motherboards are some features are lagging, it's true.

Upon your case, everything depends on what do you want to do with your mac. In the opposite ot he PC world, Presto is perfectly right on this, users tend to use their mac a long time (the 5 years span is common) and usually (nothing is perfect in the world) without a major glitch (I won't start a Mac/PC fight, it's futile, and out of our purpose here Maybe a little walk on the switch part of Apple.com would be enlightning. Apple has many defaults, but they don't have to bogus users experiences to suit their marketing strategy. People use to love their mac, even if sometimes grass is greener elsewhere.

Should you buy now or not? Well, if you want to DO womething NOW, then go for it. Else wait a little until this summer/autumn thing should start to really move there. But for the date, ask Apple, you know as much as we do
Only remember that in computer, while you wait, you have job you can't make done. If you buy now you can use your computer right away. Especially now as the driver/software questions in OSX are about to be solved quickly (major softs lagging behind: Protools (whole family), DP, Motu drivers, the plug-ins are upgrading fast)

btw Down By The Water is a beautifull song and welcome on board!

Two points in quick reply, Petra:

1. Cubase SX on OS X is great. I love it and haven't touched Logic 5.5 since I got SX. Very easy to use but still very powerful. Hooked together with Reason, it's a fantastic set-up.

2. As soon as you walk out the shop door with any computer, your new purchase is already out of date. PC or Mac, it's always the same. There's ALWAYS something better coming soon. True, if you wait until the end of the year, everything might be different. But then salepeople will probably be talking about what's coming in the next six months and how cool THAT's going to be. Like LPM says, whatever you want, get it now.

And it's certainly true that Mac users have less problems with hardware, drivers, bugs etc than PC users. For instance, in a recent manual for a USB audio interface I was testing, the PC installation section was over 30 pages long; the Mac's section was 3 pages long.

It's not a bug, it's a feature

That said, no mac/PC bashing, it's no use

Thanks Rickenbacker!

MMMMmmmmmacintosh !

afriad it's a dark time for mac users, Apple seem to be suffering the same delusion they always have, a little great technology followed by a flawed plan to control the computing world.

Here's the deal. I don't care if pcs have 3 ghz processors in them. They're still pcs. I don't think I need to elaborate in that area. And now, macs are pretty frickin fast. Dual 1.42 for $2700! That's seriously fast and very affordable. And, if you're just working on audio, you can't possibly need more than that anyway, unless you mix songs with 10 reverb plugins going at once. I use an old single 867 for my mixing, and that thing rarely runs out of juice.

Yes, the G5's will probably blow away previous systems, which will be great, but to buy a pc instead just because you can't wait is a big mistake. C'mon! We're talking about pc's here! Sheesh.

Apple doesn't want to control the computing world, they just want to capture the high end.

Apple is a much smaller company than Dell, or HP. They can make a good living catering to people with money.

The PC music software industry is on life support, Steinberg sold for a mere $25,000,000, Apple hiring Sonic Foundry's development staff, Emagic bought by Apple.

On the PC side it's hard to get users to pay $700 for an app to install on a $600 computer. Steinberg was the marketshare leader, they had about half of the PC market and over one third of the Mac market.

Their biggest problem is software piracey. Even though the total number of Mac users is smaller, the percentage of Mac users who BUY music software is higher. The Demographic for a Mac user is different.

Macs are great for music and graphics, You can get the same thing done on a PC if you learn every detail of your hardware. I own both. You have to decide PC cheaper , more time spent on research and maintenance. I prefer to spend that time making music, hardware compatibility is a no brainer on a Mac.

Please, the thread is NOT on Mac/PC bashing… or I'll close it (I know, the temptation is great). And we are going (slowly) away of Petra's problem

Now Petra, look into my eyes…

you will buy a mac
you will buy a mac
you…

in the big picture... the end result is all that matters whether it came from a Mac or PC BUT... which would you enjoy using more? that is the choosing factor in my opinion... ideally my main computer would be a mac with a PCI card holding a 1+ghz pentium to run those all important little apps that music equipment manufacturers send with gadgets that only run on PCs with no mac support (such as my DX synth plugin card for my Yamaha CS6x)

petra my man
I am in the same shoe you are in, though I am sure that I am going to get a Mac. The question is when. This is the way I am looking at things:
An Apple rep told me that they first set the dual G4 prices back in october (though he may have said august). Just recently Apple announced faster G4's at much cheaper prices! I may wait save all my pennies to be the first one to buy one when they drop them again which will probably happen in july or august, but I may have to buy one now! hehe.
I was worried about the G4's becoming absolete in wake of G5's surfacing. But they probably wont. Lets say that you wait all year until the G5's come out. Are you going to pay $3,000 dollars for one?? you would have to wait at LEAST half a year for the prices of them to drop. In the mean time G4's will be very, very fairly priced.
When G4's were first released, do you remember how long they continued to make G3's? And G3's still are not obsolete as far as speed and power recommandations go for audio apps, they are just lower end. G4's will still rock the house when G5's come out. So lets say you get a G4 now; by the time you are ready for your next upgrade in a few years G5's will be very cheap by than and you won't mind paying the extra to get one if they are going to be as fantastic as expected. But if you wait that long or settle for a PC, think of all the time you will have wasted. I dont care what anyone says, Macs are a much more invisable tool than PC's are for audio. And Apple's are sooo solidly stable that you will forget that you are using a machine. All things considered my G3 is very reliable when I think of how much I put it through. Go with the Mac. Get a G4 as they get cheaper. You dont want to spend twice the amount on a G5 when they first come out.
You want a Mac. OSX has largely considered Audio into how it works. It has never been a better time to invest in a Mac for audio.

Hey, Mr MusicS,

You say "Macs are a much more invisable tool than PC's are for audio"

Do you mean invisible? Yes, that's it. Oh! yes, isn't she pretty. I've just noticed my ibook is not always invisible. I once got quite upset though when I couldn't find it - it was hiding between two other books, but fortunately I'd left my headphones next to the little pile.

I also have a cold office/studio (a barn), so I sometimes work in an armchair with the ibook on my lap to keep me warm. (The Mbox is uncomfortable though, as it has pokey bits sticking out due to some strange design freak. Has anybody tried sawing them off? The silly wings tend to scratch the ibook when I shove all my stuff in my little shoulder bag and go out to record - oops off topic).

By the way, I'm not an Apple rep. Not me wink wink

Thanks everyone. I will do some more reading around.

I think that I secretly want to go in the direction of Mac because 1. they have the reputation of being more stable than PCs 2. they just look so much better - what a shallow statement, but hey I like the design:)

BUT the price is an issue, unless I keep the Mac for 5 years. Would I do the same with a PC? I don't know.

Lepetitmartien, thanks for the compliments on Down By The Water. There is so much more material in that direction that I need to record

Before I go on reading other posts, I do have some more specific questions.

1. Mac users. Exactly what kind of Macintosh/sound card/software combination are you using? What are the minimum recommended requirements for the computer to be a stable, reliable music machine?
(I do need Midi, so PT LE by itself is probably not good enough for me. It looks like Logic is. )

2. I know that most professional studios use Macs and Pro Tools. I was advised to get, for example Digi 001 to be compatible with the pros. What would it mean for me, however, if I had a PC with Cubase SX on it and wanted to take it for mixing and mastering to a pro studio that is using ProTools?

Please let me know. Thanks

One of Us One of Us One of Us

Obsolescence is to view this way : what you can do now, you'll can do still in 5 years. With the computers you'll have by then it'll be possible to do much more, but you can still use the old one for the same thing as today. I use for work (graphic design) a computer 5 years old, I want a new one, but I can still work The only trade off is at some time you'll have to give up the updates as they won't fit on your computer. usually, it's more than 5 years for the buying.
Obsolescence on PCs as far as I know is a different thing. People (well the ones who go for it) use to upgrade their pc bits by bits until nothing can be bettered on the motherboard, or the new software (softs or systems) don't run on it anymore. On the mac, save ram, disks, maybe a processors card or a new garphic card, you can't rebuild the computer from the ground up. The advantage : it works as the choices are few and usually well tested. The drawback: finetunig to the limits is limited, but you don't meddle with the inners too much.

A good combo now is a double G4, PCI or Firewire I/O card (PC need Soudcards, on mac only I/O-DSP cards, we have already Sound on the motherboard, we need only more power/quality), lots of ram, (more than 512), SCSI HD (fast ones)
You can do with less… depends your need/budget.
Some USB interfaces are really good, if you need only 1 or 2 inputs at a time, it's great. (more on other threads)

My dream computer? a 4X G4/G5, 6 PCI, 2 AGP, Firewire 2, USB 2.
the low end mac have plenty of power for small setup/budget. You can't run 52457 zillions of plugins/virtual instruments (we want big badder fasters powerPCs NOW but it's not the number of them that makes your music anyway.

Would you reccommend a second hand Mac? If so, what specs?

If you don't want it to be portable, get a new iMac with plenty of ram. Its not all that expensive and, well, have you seen them? That's only my opinion.

Remember though "shit in shit out"

You can do marvels with an Imac G4, but for expendability and power, a tower G4 the faster the better. Remember that in OSX (you'll be on it sooner or later) the 2 processors are used in standrad by the system and the apps. And it helps…

To be more on the spot would need some input from you, how many tracks audio do you want to mix ? Do you use/intend to use a lot of plug ins…

On RAM, the more the better. 512 is the beginning of comfort.
On HD, 7200 IDE are ok, but having 2 HD one for system, one for audio is good practice.

I suppose you cannot add another processor to an iMac, right? Can you add another hard disk?

Excuse me? I'm still new to this.


Ok, so my input is.

I suppose I will be recording plenty of audio tracks and using a lot of plug-ins - or at least I want to have the potential to do it.
For example: I want to do vocals - double, triple; background vocals, also double/triple; drums - probably dedicated track for each drum sound to be able to apply individual effects to them; (acoustic) guitar, bass and synth sounds and EFX, and plug-ins. Enough? I'm afraid it's going to require quite a powerful machine to handle it.

If you can afford the G4 tower and all the rest of the stuff you'll need, that's great.

Still, if you have a 'small' budget, I still say the G4 imac is probably quite sufficient. Even a second hand G3 imac will get you going a long way. You only need two audio I/O (in/out) + midi as you're working on your own, right? That doesn't stop you having loads of tracks in a session. If you don't spend 8hrs a day everyday on your mixing, you can manage with a good pair of headphones and your stereo set before investing $1000+ on monitors etc etc. If voice recording quality is important, the mics need to be good and they cost! Still, you could well be using them in 10 years time

We would all like the biggest and best for little money, but that doesn't work.

My G3 ibook is more than sufficient for what I want to do. Apparently OS9 needs less power and works quicker than OSX so I don't see the need to rush into OSX.

An idea: if you can get a very cheap G3 iMac (not the first ones - they make too much noise), by the time you find you need G4 tower power, they will have dropped much more in price than what you paid for the G3. That would give you time to determine your needs more precisely.

For what I need to do, the power of the computer is not important. I prefer spending money on the other stuff, but then I'm more interested in live imperfection than electronic perfection. In fact I hate perfection

If I remember well you could accelerate the first Imacs but they are really closed computers so… and they are slow G3 so can be used for midi but audio work will be painful.

HD is hard drive… IDE is a type of interface for CDrw, HD… 7200 is RPM (the turning speed)
I can do worse if I want

You bet!
You can breathe a little by bouncing tracks but if you want to use a bit of plugins at the same time, G4 at least and best is dual processor.
The Presto way is interesting, if you have a limited budget but still have a quality I/O on a good stylish computer. You are limited on the I/Os you can use at the same time, but you have a good interface, and a mac not too expensive that is kind on the eyes and powerfull enough to handle audio and plug-in reasonably. Later you can go with a bigger badder better one and keep the G4 imac for midi or internet
You can't upgrade the processor, but you can have firewire interfaces, HDs without problem.
One thing, as I've seen on a other thread… you don't rely on Apple screens only, with a little adaptor for the ADC and DVI ports on the cards of the G4 towers you can plug a iiyama or mitsubishi screen big and heavy, but less expensive.
Anyway, go for the more powerfull you can reasonnably afford. But don't neglect the G4 iMac it's a good little computer if you can round its "weaknesses" regarding the towers.

From what you say, Petra, I think you need at least a 1GHz dual G4 PowerMac. That will be able to handle all the audio you mentioned, plus plug-ins etc. If you buy that, then maybe get a cheaper monitor (an AOC LM720A 17" LCD only costs something like £350 and is pretty decent, according to reviews I've seen), max out the RAM, add another HD (SCSI or IDE internal or FireWire external, 7,200rpm spindle speed, 60 or 80Gb is plenty - any larger and it gets more unstable) and the interface of your choice, that's everything you'll need for several years. Something in the region of £2,500.

Sadly, you can't do what you want any cheaper!

However, if you're prepared to be more creative (necessity, the mother of invention), you can do OK with a less powerful machine. Bounce tracks, forgo the idea of using hundreds of plug-ins, use more Midi, mix as you go, etc. I do all my music on an iBook (G3 600MHz, OS 10.2.3) and I've learnt how far I can push my processor. I've not been too disappointed/frustrated... yet!

Thanks everyone. Now I have to go to the cave and digest all the information.

BTW, do you know a good place (on the internet (in the USA, but doesn't have to be)) to find second hand macs?

I can't give you the good second hand places but but be careful in the US with brokers who sell new macs for dirt cheap. Either it's grey market and no warranty, or it's a mirage waiting your check…

But if you know someone who is student or professor…

A company called Small Dog in Vermont (I think) has a good reputation for selling refurbished Macs. I think they are at: www.smalldog.com

best wishes, Howard Davis

Just a little comment to add - I'm using one of the original G4's, an AGP Graphics model with a 350mhz processor and 320mg of memory, Delta 66 card and an Omni i/o interface and I can still get things done. I just installed Cubase SX last night, and was happy to see that it doesn't seem to use any more of the processor than VST/32 under OS 9. The good news too, is that I can upgrade it to 1.2 ghz with a new processor from Sonnet if I ever scrape together the cash.

Sure, I can't run a huge number of processor-intensive effects all at once, but I can still work. Remember also, when you are doing things in real-time, you're just auditioning the recording, with a close approximation of what the effects, etc. will sound like. The real work isn't done until you generate the mix. That means I can actually use lots of processing, it will just take me longer to generate the final results. So, I just have to go read a magazine instead of only having a cup of coffee.

Petra, I have a souped up beige G3 for sale if you are interested. 350MHz with lots of RAM, DVD Drive, Wired4DVD PCI card, 6MB onboard VRAM, USB/Firewire Combo Card, and an AV Personality Card (Apple's own AV input/ouput card w/s-video, audio rca, audio eighth inch stereo, and composite video). Write me if you want more info. $500. I also have other extras for it if wanted, like a Voodoo3 card, 10/100 Ethernet card, Ultra-SCSI card.

I have run Cubase VST, Logic 5, Reason, OMS, and many other audio programs on it without problems.

Scott
in Boston

LPM, I do know 1 professor, very well, and I my self work for a university. What do you suggest? Academic discount?

The prof is without a mac, though.

If you work for a university, you should be eligible for Education prices for Macs. Have a look on the Apple site under Education.

Thank you Presto. I know I can get an academic discount - it's pitifull $50, but I think that for now I'll look into buying a used mac.

Can a 400 or 500MHz dual Power Mac G4 be upgraded to let's say 1 GHz?

This isn't really for a Getting Started topic but it gives you an idea of what a G4 400 does.

benji479 on the French side has tested a session on a G4 400MHz PCI (I think its a mono) with a digi 001.

Created on a beta version of PT6 on OSX 10.2.3:
- 24 audio tracks (2 mins of empty audio) with 3 Eq 4 band and 1 Eq 1 band on each (total 72 4band and 24 1band)
- buffer size max and CPU use at 80%
Result: CPU at maximum but no overload

Then same session (it works) opened on PT 5.1.1 and OS 9.2.2 with same buffer size and CPU allocation
Result: even without trying play, CPU well in the red
So: had to reduce Eqs to just 2 4band and no 1band per track

Conclusion: OSX and/or PT6 more efficient
Comment from Mr T: Digidesign could have reduced the quality of digital processing (for the plugs and Direct to Disc) to improve performance - to be checked!

benji479 says: "could somebody do other tests on the beta (or even the official version). He would have tried better tests himself, but he now gets "program error occured -1119" when he tries to startup his beta PT6.

(Perhaps a monitor might like to put this elsewhere)

i'm a little late chiming in here.... but the IBM based cpu's will not see your home until 2004 if you're planning on buying one. If they are any sooner, that will shock a lot of people who are usually "in the know."

most likely a late 2003 announcement, and an early 2004 delivery. Personally, I'd look at what you can get right now and figure you could sell and upgrade in a year. The most important life of a computer is the first six months because after that, it's power has been diminished already by the new ones that have come out.

One thing to keep in mind is that the G5 chip will be 64 bit. That means that no software existing today will be able to run on it, everything will have to be re-written. I would go ahead and get a G4 machine.

The beauty of the IBM chip is that it can run 32bit code natively, apps will not have to recoded to work. Probably will need a 64bit OS.

You should just be patient.The G5 will have 1/3 of the PC owners switching to a MAC.........guaranteed! That's why Apple is taking their time, after the debut of the G5s their market share's going to double! Tha G5s specs are trully mouthwatering. I'm just going to put Mach 5 on my dual 1 GIG and upgrade to the G5 for DP OS X...........Finally, 1 hardware mfg, 1 software mfg, I can't wait, truly power computing utopia! That's all I'll ever need!

PC Users are constantly getting new CPUs/Motherboards to keep up. This goes into the TCO, or total cost of ownership.

I chose to get a Mac for the studio because of OS X, and because the TCO for a Mac is much less. You should find using it to be intuitive enough that you wont feel the need for upgrade unless you are keeping up with the Jones' or playing video games.

Just like someone said before, new releases of Applications tend to be more efficient on Macs. The same can't always be said for PC software.

I visited a place called Mac Center, before I bought my mac. I just wanted to see them in person, understand what all the fuss was about.

If you havent actually touched a MDD Powermac, you are missing out. Its like the computer equivalent to Fine Crystal.

Scotty

I just thought I'd inject a little pessimistic note - much as I enjoy enthusiasm in people.

On IBM G5-chips/970-chips in future macs.

1) PC-users switching in droves to Mac - forget it aint gonna happen.
( such decisions are market-driven and has very little to do with technological excellence )

2) Enormous speedboosts in endusers homecomputers - forget it has never happened yet.
( all available resources for computers/users tend to be used to the max )

10 years ago when I started my work as sysadmin at our dept we bought
25 brand-new PC:s 486 DX-II machines with 8MB ram 170Mb WD harddrives.
They ran Windows 3.11. They were the fastest standard pc:s at the time. In fact they still are today.
Usaul everday tasks like starting applications saving documents copying
files etc. DONT go any faster 'cause files are bigger, we have fancy graphical interfaces with code-bloat, the list goes on.
Higer bandwith networks gets clogged because of higher bandwith demand from users et al.

I have personally had Mac SE-30, Powermac 6100, iMac G3-Bondi Blue Rev-B, iMac G4-flatpanel 700 and iMac flatpanel 800. I dont notice any -- real practical -- difference in speed.

This said - well we all need to dream and hope a little, - no great harm in that.
Keep smiling: Dixiechicken

dixiechicken said:
>I have personally had Mac SE-30, Powermac 6100, iMac G3-Bondi Blue Rev-B, iMac G4-flatpanel 700 and iMac flatpanel 800. I dont notice any -- real practical -- difference in speed.
<

Well...

Care to go back to that SE-30? :-) Talk about agony! My first Mac was the 61/60 PPC. I bought the G3 beige because the 61/60 failed. Turned out to be the internal battery. I gave it to my dad. When I go to try it out it is slow that I'm happy to have moved on.

I completely agree with you about how improvements that should have led to speed improvement gave way to some of the other goodies we now take for granted, like incredible resolution and great color and, as we here know, fantastic sound!

You can hear some of my work-in-progress at
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/544/will_adam.html

Bill

Ahh yes it really brings back sweet memories.

Playing "Beyond Dark Castle" the game was on two double sided 800K discs
in glorious 2bit color - black and white.

Our brilliant talkative hero all the time grunting
forward neanderthal speechlike sounds like - oughh, iieeyy - and the like.

Well of course I wouldnt, all things considered, like to return to former times.
My point simply beeing that in practical terms various possible speed benefits,
almost all the time gets eaten up up by other factors - some I briefly touched upon.

As an end user you are all too often left with a slightly letdown feeling after all the
promised hype -- " Well is that ALL there is to it?" - as it were.

Full speed ahead: Dixiechicken