I'm posting this thread to request your opinions and experiences in using Logic Pro 8 IN ADDITION to DP. How dare could I ask for this you ask? Well, give a read to the DP Corner posted at audiomidi.com titled "DP or Logic Pro 8" and then come back and share your thoughts. As I begin my experiment with using both I plan to post my findings here. So what do you think? Can they or should they both co-exist on the same system? Is there a reason to have both? How do you use them? Why would you or would you not switch?

I couldn't find the article, the newest one in the DP corner was from Dec20th on using DP live part 4.

I have DP and Logic both running on my computer. Only because I've been switching daws a bit. However, the only reason I think you would want both is for compatibility with others, and the knowledge of another daw. Otherwise, why spend the money? They both can get things done and besides the extra effects and instruments in Logic I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. I guess the only other reasons to switch would be to save money on effects (part of why I switched) or if you are just plain unhappy with your DAW.

But if you are a composer and you know what you have, switching will really only be a headache for you.

n8tron

(I couldn't find the article, the newest one in the DP corner was from Dec20th on using DP live part 4.I have DP and Logic both running on my computer. Only because I've been switching daws a bit. However, the only reason I think you would want both is for compatibility with others, and the knowledge of another daw. Otherwise, why spend the money? They both can get things done and besides the extra effects and instruments in Logic I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. I guess the only other reasons to switch would be to save money on effects (part of why I switched) or if you are just plain unhappy with your DAW. But if you are a composer and you know what you have, switching will really only be a headache for you.)

Yo! n8tron... I have several sequencers, Logic Pro 7, Cubase SX and Reason. I only use Logic, the others are for "Others"... I live in Germany and the two main Sequencers are Emagic which was purchased by Apple, becoming Logic and Steinberg.

I work with several Engineers on occassion, it was worth the extra cash spent, I save money on time... "Um, how do you do this in Logic/Cubase"? or "I don't know how to use this Compressor, EQ, etc"... Two or three days of lost time was worth the money...

I'm a newbie -- windows transplant after 20 years . . . bought Macbook Pro 2.4 for music and graphics.

What would you recommend as an audio interface for Leopard? I've been looking at Edirol since it's ready out of the box without any need for Leopard drivers.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

des

P.S. You can hear my tunes here: www.dalestrand.com

I just saw a post earlier this week saying that the MOTU ultralite works flawlessly out of the box. MOTU tends to develop products specifically for Macintosh use....A good place to start. Also you should go online and check out these manufacturers and find out whether or not they address the compatibility issue or not. Many do and just as many don't.

www.myspace.com/mortal_engines

UPDATE...

The person who "Called Me Out" finally got in touch... All is cool... He is an "Oldie" like me... Actually, he's several years younger...

spend the $$ and get a Tascam FW-1082, you get motorized faders, pristine sound, and enough in/outs to record basic tracks...the real value is in this beautiful controller which will save you so much time when mixing on Logic...forget "just an interface" and go all the way with a proper controller...

MOTU Audio i recommend for leopard interface

Hi des,

Welcome over to the light side (mac that is) I very much doubt you will regret your change of teams. I don't know anyone who has switched and regretted it; especially if you are music and graphics focused. Without knowing what your budget is, or exactly what your needs are i would recommend an RME fireface (the RME drivers are fully leopard compatible and fully 64bit) or something from MOTU or ECHO if you are on a bit lower budget. I will say however that you should spend as much as you can afford on your interface as it is the most important piece of hardware you are likely to buy for your studio and means the difference between wonder/sparkle and shudder/cringe. but before I go on any further before I or any of the other more knowledgeable users on this forum (of which there are many )can really answer your question we need to know more about your needs and constraints. eg. = how many parts do you want to record simultaneously or if are you going to be using soft synths and plugins exclusively? will you be wanting to use it live? and do you also require some sort of mixer control facility? as there are quite a few interface/mixer combination units becoming available; such as the tascam unit mentioned already by minehead.

Anyway; there's some food for thought happy mac using.

jeremy

Jeremy:

Many thanks for your recommendations.

I'm solo all the way -- a part at a time live. Except for vocals. Could have up to 4 at a time.

Max 24 tracks of ready-to-mix sounds.

Plug-ins, yes.

With appreciation for your insight.

des

Hey Tim -

Great article in DP Corner about DP + L8. I'm a longtime DP user but I
bought L8 about a month ago after switching to an Intel Mac and being
less-than-impressed with how DP 5.1 worked on it.

Hate to say it but I think L8 kills DP. Just about everything seems to
work better and/or be more sensible - except perhaps MIDI editing,
which is bizarrely arcane. :)

For me, DP-killing features include L8's ability to import multiple
audio files and automatically assign and name tracks for each;
download all tracks as audio files with a single action ; record while
monitoring effects without delay (!); and bounce at
faster-than-realtime even when using a TC Master X5 on the master bus
(which slows DP 5 down to real time or worse). Plus as you mentioned,
L8's VIs are terrific, and worth what they charge for the entire
program (while DP's are practically worthless, IMO).

Anyway, I've already used L8 for one project and part of another, and
will use it on my next sample CD. I just ordered a Lynx Aurora 16,
which will replace my MOTU 24 I/) and Big Ben. I think that means I've
switched from DP to L8 for good, though I'm not 100% sure just yet.

Even so, your attempt to use DP with L8 sounds like an interesting and
noble experiment, to say the least. :) I look forward to reading about
the results.

Best,

Steve Sechi

With DP6 just announced at NAMM the comparison should be even more interesting.

Thanks for all your DP Corner articles, Tim. I'm very interested in this "experiment". My 20-year-old son has recently shown an interest in music production. I purchased an iMac, an interface, a mic, MIDI controller, and a DAW for him for Christmas and his birthday. You'd think after being a Digital Performer/Performer user for almost 20 years, deciding on a DAW for him would be an easy choice. However, after reading about the Logic Studio package, even though it hurt me, Logic seemed to indeed be a "no brainer". Especially since he'd be a beginner with whatever software I bought. Here in one $499 package (although I bought it at audiomidi.com during their 11% off sale) was everything he needed. After spending a week with him helping set everything up and getting him started, I began wondering if it was time for me to take a hard look at switching to Logic. All the features you mentioned in your article are very compelling arguments for switching. In my short experience with Logic I did find Midi editing to be confusing. I can't say that it's not as good as DP, just that the information I needed wasn't where I had become accustomed to finding it. I never did locate a "Quantize" window. I'm sure it's there somewhere.

I had not really considered using both of them at the same time. I'm looking forward to hearing more of your experiences using both side by side. In the meantime, I'm going to purchase Logic and try to walk this path with you.

srhickman... What a great dad. Seriously.

If you know how to use DP. Why change? Never change a Working System, be it Equipment or Knowledge. Hey, if you have the time to do both, that's best. Never too much knowledge, except at the beginning stages.

I don't know anything about DP but $499 Package sounds like a good deal to me. Let's hope "The Kid" stays with the music, if not, you just got yourself some cool gear.

I have to say as a longtime DP user who bought Logic 7 (used it for 6 months and sold it) and then bought Logic Studio (a lot of stuff for 500 bucks for sure, esp. for people starting out) I used Logic 8 for a couple projects, but hardly ever use it now, after trying out the VIs and Jam Packs - I have NI Komplete 5, DFH, BFD, etc, so I'm spoiled for great sounds, so the VIs didn't impress.

Some people have mentioned the MIDI editing in Logic being arcane. This is true, and since midi is such a crucial aspect of my workflow, this is my main frustration with Logic. The MIDI editing and workflow is quite primitive and unintuitive IMHO.

Someone also wrote that Logic can import multiple audio tracks and add names, etc - have you ever tried dragging almost any kind of audio into the left side of DP's track overview - it does this automatically, converts, and the file name is there automatically. I can bounce down faster than realtime - using UAD's stuff works fine -not sure about TC's stuff. DP's VIs definitely need some help though. Logic is more CPU friendly, but I ran the same dance project in DP, and I still had room to spare on my Quad G5, just not as much :-).

There's all kinds of stuff I can do in DP that Logic still lacks (and this is DP 5 - wait until DP 6!) - pitch correction, clippings, non destructive audio editing (ever try to reverse an audio bite in Logic?), logical midi editing, much more flexible and sensible VI handling, chunks, more visual choices, easier on the eyes (IMO) and on and on. No, I don't work for MOTU, but have shelled out lots of bucks for Logic 7 and 8 (I can figure things out - I was even giving tips to a Logic trainer that had just upgraded to Logic 8!), and always come back to DP. Again, if you're starting out, Logic is a great all-in-one and works for lots of people - it's just not near what it's hyped out to be (and when I was doing a VI intensive dance project, bouncing all the tracks to audio resulted in all kinds of weird buggy responses that hopefully will be fixed in an update - I ended up saving the midi files and recording to audio in DP for the same project so I could get it finished).

Hope this biased report balances out the Logic hype a bit

jlaudon, DP is a PC Software, it has been around much longer than Logic. PC always had a jump on Macintosh. If you had a Mac you used, if you could afford it Pro-Tools. The second choice was Cubase. Logic, which was emagic, a Germany company, rival to Cubase (Steinberg) Macintosh purchased emagic several years ago. Macintosh does not really develop Logic. They are still asking for help from emagic and those guys are in Majorca spend the millions they got on the Buy-Out.

Macintosh is more concerned with Hardware. They are too cheap, can you believe it, too cheap to bring in Musical People to develop Logic. I have heard about the MIDI Shortcomings in Logic, fortunately my music is based in Audio. There, I think it sounds as good or better than Pro-Tools.

As far as DP goes? I only know about it from Magazines. Out of all the Studio's and musicians I know, I have never once seen what DP looks like on a Screen. But, whatever works for you, "Do It". I certainly don't go around promoting Macintosh Software, but, I will take Mac Gear over a PC. I've seen in "Real Time" both machines function... Everything works 100% on my Mac. Macintosh does not allow "Bootleg" companies to just introduce themselves into the Mac System. I have used Macintosh since 1992 and never had a virus! 16 years. Of course my machine will explode now.

Whatever works best for you as a musician or music creator, use it. However, I don't think you will find many DP users in 440... Macintosh has been developing GarageBand, but it's sort of like "Fun Research And Development".

I've asked this question before: Does anyone know anyone who has had a "Main Stream" Radio Hit Song using GarageBand?

Mac Daddy:

Thanks for the compliment. We had helped my daughter with some money and wanted to do the same for my son. When he expressed an interest in music production I was both surprised and proud. After only a month, he's still learning and excited. I think he'll stick with it. By the way, the controller I bought him was the Akai MPK-49 which I was really impressed with (in case anyone is looking for a small keyboard).

I understand that DP isn't as popular in Europe. Logic and Cubase seems to rule there. However, DP is used by a number of pro's in the US and throughout the world, especially those working with film and video. It's also popular as a live sequencer due to it's stability (see Tim's other DP Corner articles at audiomidi.com). It has been around longer than Logic, but it is not PC software. It has always been Macintosh software. Check out a little of it's history at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Performer

May your Mac never explode! Here's to 16 more years of virus-free computing!!

jlaudon:

Thanks for posting your experiences with Logic 7 & 8. You sound like a happy MOTU guy, like I have been for most of 19 years. I have NI Komplete, DFH Superior, Spectrasonic's VIs, Vienna, EWQL, Waves, Altiverb etc. too, and still in the brief time I spent with it, Logic's VI's, loops, and plugins impressed me. MIDI is crucial to my workflow, too. I have to assume that Logic can do what DP can do in terms of MIDI, it's just not in the way I've gotten used to. And surely all those Logic users in the world aren't as frustrated as I was. Thanks also for letting everyone know just how good DP is. I'm looking forward to DP 6, too. I'm glad to see that they've added easier track comping similar to Logic 8. I'm also glad to see that MOTU is finally giving us the ability to chose an audio format and supporting interleaved files. I did expect a price cut from MOTU in order to compete with what Apple has done with Logic Studio. Street prices are similar. Still, for the new user looking at the "what you get" to "what you pay" ratio, Logic seems to still win. But, you're probably right, it may be too hard for me to completely switch to Logic at this point in my career.

Which brings us to "the experiment" that brought us all together. Tim, it's been several weeks now, how's it going?

Not sure where you got your info from but Performer has always been Mac-Only software, and they both started thier software products with in a year of each other, MOTU is the older company it came out with midi hardware as it's first products.

srhickman... Thanks for the Education... As usual I am Loud & WRONG...

Well, just to throw in my 2¢, I have been a DP user for years (version 3 and up) and was using DSP before that in OS 9.

DP has always been a rock solid performer and was one of the first to offer surround sound editing and flexible MIDI editing. Very powerful tool.

However, I started using Logic v7 since I got a really good deal on it at the time that DP 5 came out as an upgrade from v4.6. I eventually purchased DP5 as well since Logic was such a paradigm shift for me. Learning curve was way too steep to get a handle on the interface and the benefits over DP (better AU integration, less reliance on MAS plugs, tighter integration with the OS) did not sway me to switch 100% to Logic.

However, when Logic 8/Logic Studio came out and I got a peek at it, I had to move over full bore. Especially with the DP6 upgrade on the far horizon (at the time) and some strange hangs I was having in DP5 that I could not resolved.

Since moving to Logic 8 full time and taking the time to learn it and unlearn some of the habits I picked up in DP, I have to say I find my workflow to be a lot better in LS than it was in DP. Also, the mastering options in LS are heads above those in DP5. I can't speak for DP6, but my understanding is that MOTU has taken care of a lot of the deltas in performance for this release. However, my upgrade cost to DP6 is about half of what the full price of Logic was and it seems like the upgrades on Logic are actually slightly more affordable.

Plus, since Apple is handling the support of the application and the rest of my studio (OS, CPU, etc.) it should be a better support experience should I need it. So far, the forums have been the best help (Apple's and THIS ONE!!!!!).

Also, since I have found GarageBand to be a great sketch pad and the seamless integration of GB -> Logic conversions it makes it even easier to have that project on my PB transfer to my DAW project with one right click (control click for the single button mouse users).

I still have DP and open it occasionally, but I find myself more and more, sticking to Logic for my audio needs. DP is like the old girlfriend I still enjoy having coffee with. As long as LS doesn't get too jealous of those one off 'clandestine meetings' I think I am good to go. LS is now my 'main girl' in the world of DAWs.

All that said, I truly love my MOTU 828 and the fact that MOTU offered the first FireWIre Audio Interface AND wrote their software for Mac only was the primary reason I chose to go with their product line.

I am sure that muddies the water even more than clarifies it. But both products are wonderful applications. I think it is more of a personal preference type thing. If you're going to use GB or Logic Express for any work or collaborate with anyone who does, in addition to Logic 8/Studio, then Logic is the easiest choice to make. If not, then it is a coin toss and a comfort zone question.

peace.

440 Members, I apologize for my synth strings remark. I said: "Synth Strings Suck". The coddledegg sent me a Brilliant example of one of his "Orchestral Productions" created with Reason 3... I thought I was in a Symphony Hall!!! I really better look and listen to MIDI more. I have always liked the concept of MIDI. Most that I have heard I guess is not developed... But, what the coddledegg sent has made me look and listen to Synth Strings in a new light...

coddledegg get well soon...

Damn you're good!!!!

Hello experimenters,

I am also taking part in "the experiment." I am a long time DP user and before that a Bars and Pipes Professional user on the Amiga platform. I took delivery of Logic 8 about three weeks ago. A nice package with lots of extras. However, I like to work up my stuff thru MIDI. This means extensive and detailed MIDI editing. I do very little live recording. I'll be damned if I can figure out the MIDI deal in Logic. Maybe I should go to Majorca and have a talk with the emagic guys or read the manual? (Ugh!)

Dano10

I had to Google Majorca in order to find out where in the world it was.

Dano10: I hate the thought of reading the manual, too. How about a good "getting started with Logic" DVD. Can anyone recommend one?

deaconblue: Thanks for your post. It encourages me to really give Logic a try as my "main girl". Do you use MIDI a lot in your work? Did you just throw yourself into Logic full time on every project? How long before you noticed the workflow improvements? Where IS the Quantize window and can you quantize by percentage like in DP?

Steve

As someone mentioned before, DP (Performer) was the first sequencer for Mac in the 80s, but I started with master tracks pro.

DANO10, Logic's midi editing requires a different way of thinking (regions vs. linear 'analog' style recording), so I much prefer DP's midi editing (and VI midi tracks separate from audio/VI tracks). I think using Logic for audio is fine, but a lot of the audio editing I do makes me still prefer DP's workflow by a long shot, after using both DAWs together since Logic Studio came out. I've also had a super stable setup with DP5.13, OS X 10.4.11 and my Quad G5. Over at Unicornation.com, Shooshie has a thread on how stable DP 5.13, 10.5, and his Mac Pro have been - not a single crash since he upgraded!

I seem to get a lot of crashes with Logic 8 when I bounce audio (dropouts, missed midi control things with VIs, stuttering audio, etc -all with the CPU barely being used - does anyone else get this?), but I haven't spent much time to troubleshoot (deadlines), so I just imported everything into DP for mixing to get the projects finished.

steve,

Logic is definitely a new deal overall for me relatively speaking, but yeah, a good DVD to get started is pretty essential. I'd rather be a musician using a tool than having to delve into the manual to get started.

I actually can recommend MacPro Video for the Logic series. Some really good stuff on there. The core 101 program is a great overview with tutorials. Nicely laid out, nicely presented. I have one other, but I am drawing a blank right now on the title and I left it at work (trying to get some lessons in over lunch). I'll post back with the title/publisher tomorrow.

I use MIDI, but not extensively. I use it more for recording and then quantizing my ham-fisted-ness into music (i am a guitar player, so keys are not my first, natural choice). However, I think jlaudon is right on with the assessment of DP being a slicker MIDI editor. But I am not sure it is actually a better one. Again, the workflow is definitely different than DP, so it takes time to get into that groove.

It took me a few sessions to realize the benefits of LS workflow, but once I pulled the trigger on LS8 I did switch over for all my sessions full time. I have gone back to DP for some of my older projects that are still not quite 'done' yet, but ones I don't want to bring into LS unless I absolutely have to. Too many past problems migrating between applications (Pro-Tools to DP, etc.) so, I tend to avoid that process unless I have no other choice.

The Quantize function is available via the arrangement window with two options. First the pull down menu for some 'stock quantization values', including rigid values (1/4 note, 1/8th note, etc.) or adding a little swing. Also, you can use the Quantize Tool. Click on the Tool Bar (the default is your arrow selection tool). If you use the quantize tool you can then select individual notes or groups of notes instead of your entire MIDI regions. If you use the Piano Roll widow, it'll make it a lot easier and more flexible to quantize specific notes in your MIDI track.

The delta between DP and Logic on the % quantization is that you have to access the Extended Region Parameters box and use the Q-Strength adjustment to set the level of quantization you want to implement on your selection. It is defaulted to 100%.

I hope that helps. The Logic Pro 8, 101 course gives a lot more and better detail.

jlaudon,

I haven't had any issues with crashes nor stuttering. I am on a DP 2.0Ghz G5 with 8GB RAM. Not sure if that is a part of your crashing issue. I have heard rumblings on other forums about the QP G5s being a bit weird at times. I actually have a friend who had his QPG5 replaced recently with a Mac Pro tower due to multiple issues with his G5. So far his MacPro is rock solid, but he is having some problems with specific plug ins not being intel ready.

Good luck to both of you. May the muse be with you and the tools work in your favor!

peace.

Deacon, your Post to Steve is a beautiful thang....