Do I need a mixer with 828?, Can I go through the 828 or do I need a mixer? Options

Alright, this may be a dumb and/or obvious question...

I'm setting up a new iMac 800mhz with a MOTU 828 and my question is, do I need to run vocals, miked amps, drums, and such through a mixer first or can I go directly to the 828 and then to the iMac.

If I should not go direct to the 828, will something like a basic Mackie board work (which we use for live performances so it would be a pain to dislodge it from the rest of the PA setup) or would preamps suffice?  

Thanks in advance.

www.theslowtrain.com

On a related note... what's the story on AudioDesk, the bundled software with the 828. I've heard some positive things here and there but nobody really seems to be using it. Should I upgrade immediately to Digital Performer?

[Synthetic]

you can run directly into the 828 with no problems unless you are trying to record more instruments simulataneously than you have inputs then you may want to consider a mixer. I think the 828 has built in mic preamps so you want to make sure to use those for guitar, vocals, and such but keyboards and electronic instruments usually can run without a preamp... but I have found that a good preamp especially one with tubes will enhance the sound of some electronic sounds as well as mic'ed sounds.

A mixer may be needed for recording a whole band performance especially if you have several mics on the drummer and want to use some studio recording tricks such as mics for ambient sound and direct sound.

And I have never seen the Audiodesk app that comes with it but if you have the opportunity... go with with Digital Performer because I am sure it will blow it away in features.

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, in cases where we may need more than eight tracks (such as the one you mentioned with multiple mics on the drums and the full band going) I had anticipated the need to bring in a mixer. But you definitely answered my first question. The confusion arises out of the fact that I have not actually purchased the 828 yet... wanted to make sure I knew exactly what I could do with it before I did.

As far as AudioDesk goes, I've heard some comment that if you don't need to use MIDI (I don't), it should be adequate for multitracking. But, again, there seems to be a very small sampling of folks that have actually used it.

How about Roxio's Toast with Jam? Is it worth it? Is this a consumer level product or is it better than that? I've been reading about it the last few weeks but have never heard of it before. I'm always wary of any product I find out about through a manufacturers website (apple.com in this case) as opposed to word of mouth.

I know these are basic questions but I'm just switching over to Mac after years of PC use (and abuse) so you'll have to forgive me. There's a saying in Texas, 'I wasn't born in Texas but I got here as quick as I could.' I think that applies to the Macintosh vs. Wintel debate in my case.

www.theslowtrain.com

[damann]

hi man,
an interesting topic!
if you can afford a mixer, why not buy more than one interface instead?
all mic pre's are not equal and valve/tube is not the holy grail, i've been pro for 20 years and nothing beats a vintage neve!
audiodesk is pretty rudimentary, all of the main sequencing packages will take you further.
when editing multiple audio tracks simultaneously you will need something like pro-tools,nuendo or cubase sx (preferably sx 'cos it's more future-proof).
toast and jam will give you sonic integrity and flexibility that dosen't exist in any other software, i wouldn't leave or go home without it!
for a modern setup the mixer of your sequencer should be considered as your desk, hardware mic-pre's and compressors plugged into your interfaces instead of a desk and outputs 1&2 into a good pre-amp into a good amp into a good pair of speakers is all you need.
digital audio sounds as good as the signal you put into it!

[jimmydonny]

hi-
i was checking this forum out to see if someone might be able to offer advice in resolving probs i was having with DP3/audiodesk ... i think they were caused by VST wrapper... if you have a 'DP3 cannot open the type of file, blah blah blah, file made by newer version of audiodesk, etc. etc., try ditching all VST wrapper stuff, moving plugins, and reinstalling DP3...

as far as a mixer, the 828, and audiodesk are concerned, i have used audiodesk for over a year with very few problems, and found it lacking only in the midi dept. it is powerful, versatile mutitracking softwqare, and i think unless you plan to do midi sequencing, stick with audiodesk. spend the coin on a nice mic pre or something.

mixer w/828- i only did this to make the latency truly zero when i was recording multiple instruments at the same time and wanted to provide everyone with a headphone mix. i routed everyone through the mixer to the motu as discrete channels, and got the headphone mix from the mixer, instead of sending all the instruments out to 'analog 1-2' and monitoring that (with 'monitor record-enabled tracks' turned on), which crashed my mac because of throughput problems if the sample buffer size was too low (which reduces latency). with too large a buffer size, the latency was like 1/4 second, which means that you play a note and then hear it 1/4 second later, which makes it impossible to monitor what you're playing...

good luck-
dave

Jimmy, interesting that you say you used the mixer to eliminate the latency.  I was under the impression that the 828 was known for its low latency.  I guess the point is that 'low' does not equal 'no' latency and nothing is better than a direct monitor signal.

As for Damann's comments above, I don't think I said I could afford to buy another mixer (I wish), what I meant was that I was going to borrow the one from our live setup if need be.
That brings me to another question. When you say that 'the mixer of the sequencer should be considered as your desk,' what exactly does that mean? This is obviously a case of me not knowing the vocabulary of what we're talking about here but what are you referring to as the 'sequencer?' The 828?

Also, as far as the software question goes, it is true as JimmyDonny says that I have no MIDI needs whatsoever. I noticed, Damann, that in your list of stuff you'd recommend you mentioned Cubase, ProTools, and others but made no mention of DP3. It seems a lot of folks are using DP3 so why are they using it? If it's so great, why wouldn't you recommend it?

[lepetitmartien]

Dave as you were completly OT in your first paragraph, I created a thread here:

http://www.macmusic.org/forums/topic.cgi?f...rum=1&topic=721

(naughty boy

[damann]

audiodesk, like dp3, protools, cubase, logic etc incorporates a 'desk' otherwise known as a mixer. it sounds to me like you will want to use your analogue desk as part of the process of inputting/headphone monitoring signals to the interface, the 828.
sorry i didn't mention dp3, my only problem with it is the fact that it dosen't support vst plugins as succesfully as cubase or logic, these are the most popular plugins on the scene, are abundant and largely free!
protools is the industry leader in the area that you are interested, it's software is definitely better than audiodesk, audiodesk is just motu's version of protools, as nuendo is steinberg's.
protools is the industry standard so will give you greater compatibility with pro studios! i really think you should consider a digi001, just as cheap as the motu, allows you to use rtas plugs and protools software(free with it).
'sequencer' is really a midi term, dp3, cubase and logic are sequencers, the only reason i think you might want to ultimately get one is the fact that once you get into the computer solution you might find that virtual instruments like hammonds, rhodes pianos, clavinets, synths etc are useful, i checked your website and noticed that you do have a keyboard player in the band.
finally, the latency issue! i think somehow jimmydonny's computer is not as powerful as the 800mhz imac, minimal buffer sizes are essential for low latency but require powerful computers. your imac is powerful enough to use the smallest buffer setting, on this setting you won't percieve a delay, if the computer isn't up to the job it wont be able to handle the buffer size and will usually glitch or even crash!
peace, good luck, hope to have helped.

[lepetitmartien]

Audiodesk is just the streamlined audio part of DP, that's all. It is not meant to walk on the foot of PT. And DP doesn't support VST at all. wrappers do it for it (VST Wrapper and Pluggo).

And slowtrain… I just marked that… Make ONE THREAD per QUESTION

It helps…

thank you