Yamaha, Finale, And Mac Osx Leopard - Idiot Guide?, Never installed midi before on OSX, need guidance Options

[jmcm]

Essentials:
System - Mac OS X Leopard OR Tiger (or have older machines running Panther);
Typesetting software - Finale;
Midi device - Yamaha PortableGrand NP-30

I typeset for years on OS9 with Finale, and an old Roland plugged into my Mac via the serial connection, but after a couple of years doing no typesetting I am restarting, and had to pension off the old OS9 machine and Roland and upgrade Finale to run on my OSX machines. With the OS9 machine I just plugged in the Roland and it worked (with a bit of fiddling in Finale), but that approach isn't working with OSX. I have very little idea even where to start to get this working, so I'm looking for someone who could walk me through the steps as a complete beginner in installing a midi device to work with my Mac. Sorry.

(I did do a search of the threads to see if this had already been gone over, but couldn't find anything. If you can point me to a relevant thread I can go through that to see if I can get my devices working.)

What I've done:
I've installed the Yamaha USB Midi driver 1.1.0 and the update 1.1.1 - I can't find a newer one by searching with google. This appears in my System prefs, but when I start it up it tells me there is no USB midi device attached (oh yes there is). I've checked the cables, restarted, tried switching the plugs on my midi cable around and I'm getting lights on the cable, so something is working. I've also gone through the well-documented steps in Finale to try and reach the midi device that way, but failed as it's obviously not communicating with the system. I also started up Garage Band to see if it might find the keyboard for me, but it didn't.

The obvious possibilities are a) the Yamaha model I have is never going to talk to a Mac and I should have bought something more expensive; b) Leopard (which has issues with just about every software) has issues with 3rd party midi drivers, and I should try this on Tiger (which means a tedious reinstall, but I'll do it if I have to) or panther. On the other hand I may just have no idea what I'm doing and there's something completely obvious (to someone in the know) that I have missed.

I'm hoping someone has some experience that would save me a lot of time fiddling around and getting frustrated, and wouldn't mind helping me out. I'm not new to Macs, so am reasonably competent, but unfortunately it seems I'm a total deadhead with midi.

[philflood]

There are a whole bunch of connectivity issues with USB and Leopard. I hate to say it, buts its almost as bad as the whole XP to VISTA changeover. Unless the driver was written for Leopard, you are not likely to get it to work. I would suspect that you would have no issues with Tiger, although there are occasional issues that pop-up when a driver was not designed for an Intel system. Personally, I would go through the trouble of the tedious Tiger reinstall, and hold off on upgrading to Leopard until such time as you know drivers are available for all of you essential hardware devices.

[kayj_prod]

I can't help you with Finale (being a Sibelius user), but it might help us to know which MIDI interface you're using. You say you've installed the Yamaha USB driver which I guess you got with the interface?

In my experience, using Leopard, Tiger (and all prior OSX's) I've never had a problem with any MIDI interface working. In Leopard, I've used two interfaces (1 in and 1 out plus a built-in to keyboard type) which have both appeared without needing any drivers installing. Its wierd even GarageBand can't use it!

Do you know anyone else with a USB interface you could try on your machine- maybe the shop you bought your current interface from? I'd prefer that to a re-install.

[jmcm]

Thank you both for your replies - I've certainly had other USB issues with Leopard, but they seemed to clear up with the early updates. The midi cable I was supplied claims to be Mac OS plug-and-play and is an
E-MU X midi1x1 USB MIDI interface. [16 midi channels, bus-powered plug-and-play]

It has one in and one out cable to a big lump on the cable that has lights for 'power' and also for midi-in and -out activity (presumably the interface), then the USB plug at the other end. I've tried this both into my USB hub and directly plugged into the computer without getting a spark. Oddly I couldn't decide which way the plugs should go into the back of the keyboard: I would have thought that the 'midi in' plug would go into the 'midi in' socket, and ditto with the 'midi out'. When I did this none of the lights except the 'power' ones lit up. When I swapped the cables over I got lights on the 'midi in' indicators, but not the 'midi out' (feedback??). So I'm no wiser about which way is right!

The mac logo on the packaging is using the old 'Classic' two-face style rather than the metallic 'X' of newer mac-compatible logos, which may be a bad sign, particularly where Leopard is concerned.

I think you're right that I'll have to try this on an earlier version of the OS to be sure it's not just a Leopard issue (or indeed an issue with my laptop USB connection). I have an old G4 dual-processor machine running Panther, and that will run Finale if I de-register and re-register it to that machine (tedious, but not the end of the world).

Presumably if things work correctly in Panther I should find that starting up the Midi interface software from the System Prefs will find the midi device I have plugged in, and then I just follow Finale's instructions for connecting it to the software. I'll let you know if I succeed - and no doubt also if I don't!

Many thanks again,
Julia

[jmcm]

I have now tried the keyboard with the older Mac running Tiger. Same problem: I get an error message that a midi device isn't plugged in. I don't really think the keyboard or midi interface are faulty - maybe my Yamaha keyboard is just not designed to be a midi device?

I will see if someone at the Music Faculty can advise me, as they must have equipment like this, and can probably tell me if my stuff is the problem.

I think you're right that I'll have to try this on an earlier version of the OS to be sure it's not just a Leopard issue (or indeed an issue with my laptop USB connection). I have an old G4 dual-processor machine running Panther, and that will run Finale if I de-register and re-register it to that machine (tedious, but not the end of the world).

[Mr12AX7]

Thank you both for your replies - I've certainly had other USB issues with Leopard, but they seemed to clear up with the early updates. The midi cable I was supplied claims to be Mac OS plug-and-play and is an
E-MU X midi1x1 USB MIDI interface. [16 midi channels, bus-powered plug-and-play]

It has one in and one out cable to a big lump on the cable that has lights for 'power' and also for midi-in and -out activity (presumably the interface), then the USB plug at the other end. I've tried this both into my USB hub and directly plugged into the computer without getting a spark. Oddly I couldn't decide which way the plugs should go into the back of the keyboard: I would have thought that the 'midi in' plug would go into the 'midi in' socket, and ditto with the 'midi out'. When I did this none of the lights except the 'power' ones lit up. When I swapped the cables over I got lights on the 'midi in' indicators, but not the 'midi out' (feedback??). So I'm no wiser about which way is right!

The mac logo on the packaging is using the old 'Classic' two-face style rather than the metallic 'X' of newer mac-compatible logos, which may be a bad sign, particularly where Leopard is concerned.

I think you're right that I'll have to try this on an earlier version of the OS to be sure it's not just a Leopard issue (or indeed an issue with my laptop USB connection). I have an old G4 dual-processor machine running Panther, and that will run Finale if I de-register and re-register it to that machine (tedious, but not the end of the world).

Presumably if things work correctly in Panther I should find that starting up the Midi interface software from the System Prefs will find the midi device I have plugged in, and then I just follow Finale's instructions for connecting it to the software. I'll let you know if I succeed - and no doubt also if I don't!

Many thanks again,
Julia

[philflood]

Midi can be frustrating. According to the information I have been able to find, your interface should work without any additional drivers. Plug it directly into a USB port on the computer. Do not go through a USB hub. Connect the midi in of the EMU interface to the midi out of your keyboard. You could connect the midi out of the EMU to the midi in of the NP30 if you want to use the NP30 sounds to audition your music. However, that is not necessary, as you could also just use the Quicktime instruments to play back, in which case you will hear the sound through your computer speakers. You need to go to the control panel for sound and make the appropriate sound input and output settings. But remember, midi itself is not sound, it is a set of instructions. The midi in gets recorded to your composition in Finale. When you play back from finale the midi instruction are sent to the keyboard if you have it select, or to the Quicktime instruments, and it plays back. I believe you also have to select the midi in and out location from within Finale to enable to recording and playback. And, I'm still not sure about Leopard, although I did not see anything on the EMU site indicating that your device would not work with Leopard.

Good luck!

[qusp74]

jmcm,

'I would have thought that the 'midi in' plug would go into the 'midi in' socket, and ditto with the 'midi out'. When I did this none of the lights except the 'power' ones lit up. When I swapped the cables over I got lights on the 'midi in' indicators, but not the 'midi out' (feedback??). So I'm no wiser about which way is right!'

as philflood has said you must connect the 'midi in' plug on your emu to the 'midi out' port on your keyboard. its weird I know but thats the way it goes. So if you think about it that way the fact that you got some feedback on the 'midi in' the interface was working when you did this shows that there shouldn't be any problem; you just have some routing to do so as to be able to trigger your 'Audio device'; philflood is also correct in that you need something to produce the audio for you such as a Virtual instrument or quicktime as the keyboard on its own will not transport audio into the computer without plugging it into an audio interface on your machine.

you will need to Setup audition to receive midi on the same channel/s (usually 1-16) as you keyboard is setup to 'transmit' on. These settings will need to be mirrored in your OS X Audio/midi preferences setup pages.Then you will have to insert an 'audio instrument' track, (or whatever it's called in audition), and set that track up to receive midi data on the same midi channel as you have chosen on your keyboard. Unfortunately I can't give you any 'Audition specific' advice as I haven't used it before.

Hope this helps

and you should be able to use a USB hub; it just has to be a powered one so it isn't relying on the bus for power.

Ce message a été modifié par qusp74 - sam. 12 avril 2008, 10:19.

[jmcm]

Dear qusp74 and philflood,

Many thanks for your replies.
I've done all the things you suggest but absolutely nothing happens at the computer end - i'm just told that the computer can't detect a midi device when I go to the driver setup in the control panel. (I've got a powered hub, but used the direct connection as I know these things can cause problems.)

I actually don't want to hear my typeset music played back on the keyboard (Finale plays back whatever is input on the laptop's internal speakers), or record what I'm playing on the keyboard into the computer. What I want to use the keyboard for is specifying the pitch of the note I'm inputting to a Finale score. It probably works the same way in Sibelius, but just to clarify (sorry if you already know this!):

If I want to put the note middle-c (value: crotchet) in the score there are two ways of doing this using the 'Speedy entry' tool:
1. click in the relevant bar, cursor up or down until the cursor is over the right pitch, then hit '5' on the numberpad.
2. select 'use midi input' in the 'Speedy entry' menu, then hold down middle-c on my midi keyboard and hit the '5' on the numberpad.

The second system, as you can imagine is *much* faster than the first when you're inputting a long string of notes, particularly if they cover a wide pitch range, since you don't have to cursor up and down between notes. You can of course also play in using the keyboard for durations as well as pitches, but that has the added problem of maintaining a constant rhythm and so on, and for me is more trouble than it's worth as I'm nearly always typesetting from the editor's manuscript, and I sometimes spend several seconds trying to work out what they intend for a note. (I did a whole Donizetti opera for Covent Garden from his working manuscript - filled with personal abbreviations and crossings out - with method 2: the only way.)

There are various bits of software and plugins that should allow me to configure everything to work as I want, either via the system settings (Yamaha midi driver) or in Finale, but although all the right windows and icons appear, I can't get past the basic problem that none of my systems seem to be communicating with the midi device. At least I now know which sockets to put the plugs into, but I'm still getting nowhere with recognising the device.

Given that other people have had plug-and-play experiences with Mac and midi, I'm beginning to wonder if I have a faulty midi cable despite the encouraging lights on it? I have tried it on Leopard and on Tiger, but both return the same error: that there is no midi device plugged in, even after I restarted with the thing plugged in. I still think there is something I'm missing that would probably be obvious if one of you was looking over my shoulder!

Time is running out a bit for me to send these things back if either is faulty. I'll give it another go today, but it has taken so much time so far (without success) that it would have been quicker to input the score I need to typeset with my nose!!

Many thanks.

[qusp74]

jmcm,

No problem; Sounds like an excruciatingly painful process EVEN IF YOU GET THE THING WORKING , the things we do for money. if you go into the apple drop-down menu, go into 'about this mac' and click 'more info' , click the triangle next to hardware and then USB ; can you see your EMU midi device in there? sometimes it doesn't recognize the device name and just calls it 'USB Device' or something generic like that, but you should be able to tell if its there by the location or by eliminating the other devices that are connected to the USB bus. if its not in there than you definitely have hardware or driver issues. Hope you get it working I imagine you gat a pretty sore nose doing it your normal way