Going No-native, dsp question Options

[karambos]

I presently run all my audio and effects natively on my G3 processor. It's only a small one (233MHz) and gets overloaded quickly with about 6 or 8 audio tracks with effects. I need some advice on what non-native solutions are available out there. As far as I'm aware there are DSP's (Digital Signal Processors) that take care of the effects (like the Powercore) and others that do both audio and effects (like DigiDesign's MixPlus). Is that right? Potential candidates so far are: TC Powercore, Digi Design 001, Yamaha DSP 2416, something by Terratec, MOTU Audio 2408, DigiDesign MixPlus, Creamware Pulsar, Creamware Scope.

Ideally I'm willing to spend more money on something that fully removes the load from my processor so that no matter what computer I buy (Macintosh) it will not overload. Basically I need at least 30 Audio tracks.

thankyou

karambos

----------
www.thefair.de

[Teiwaz]

Realistically, a G3 233mhz processor (even without any plug-ins active) is not going to get you up to 30 tracks. You need a G4 processor (it has AltiVec processing, the G3 processor does not, and 233mhz is feeble and will not get you anywhere near the performance you're expecting of it...)



if this machine is the older beige (or even a blue&white) G3 and you're using it's built in drive for audio then even with a G4 500mhz processor upgrade in the same machine, your internal drive will not give you the performance for 30 audio tracks.

If you have firewire, then you should get a firewire 7200 rpm drive (either an IBM deskstar or a Seagate Barracuda, both 7200rpm) for audio (make it a large one - at least 60 gigabytes, they're cheap enough these days) and a processor upgrade...but to avoid any time consuming compatibility problems, I would definitely upgrade to a faster mac...maybe a 2nd hand G4 dual 500...that will get you in the clear for 30 audio tracks along with the 7200 rpm firewire drive.

As for DSP options, there is one card I would highly recommend that you didn't mention in your list: the magnificent Universal Audio UAD-1 card.

It has a better design than the TC powercore (not partitioned - just one single supercomputing 1GHZ chip especially to run it's own plug-ins) and the plugs that come FREE with it are absolutely stunning and they 'rubbish' all the equivalent Dodgydesign TDM plugs, at a fraction of the price.

Here is an example:

One single UAD-1 card can run TEN Realverb Pro plug-ins all at once.

The cost of the hardware:

$700 (for the UAD-1 without the ADAT I/O)...all the plugs are free...

around $3,000 minimum for a new digidesign mix system...this card will only run THREE Realverb Pro plug-ins...no difference in quality...you don't get the plugs free either, and they're prohibitively EXPENSIVE...and things like the LA2A and the UREI 1176 plugs are nowhere near as good on TDM (Bomb Factory) as they are on the UAD-1 card...don't go ahead without doing your 'homework' on this card...honestly...



Check Universal Audio out:

http://www.uaudio.com/PPI/home.html

This is the best card out there right now...nothing to beat it. Truly.



stay NATIVE...I would give mix+ a body swerve...you'll end up only being able to run digi's own RTAS/TDM plugs with a TDM system...that's if you can afford to get them, and like I illustrated, you will need to get another TWO mix farms to even begin to equal the DSP crunching power that the UAD-1 is capable of...and of course, you will not be able to run native stuff on this system without the hassles of buying and installing a VST wrapper - it uses it's own fenced off audio driver - DAE (bleugh).

For the same money as a TDM system, you could get yourself a brand new stonkingly powerful mac with 3 UAD-1 cards and a ton of native instruments and plug-ins!!!

One only needs a nanosecond to work out the best deal...



By the way, what I/O interface do you currently use...?

[karambos]

many thanks for your informative reply, Teiwaz. To answer your question about what I/O I use at the mo - I have an Audiowerk 2 card from Emagic.

Which actually brings me to another question: if I were to buy the UAD-1 would it act as my I/O? I mean, could I then sell the Audiowerk 2? In other words (and please, excuse my ignorance on this topic) is the UAD-1 a 'soundcard' as well as being a superb effects processor?

I've heard a lot of talk about "hard-drive recording" systems (like the yamaha 2416). What is a hard drive recording system? I mean, I record to my hard drive now (BTW I have a Barracuda IV, 60 gig, 7200rpm). Is the UAD-1 a hard drive recording system?

thanks

karambos

[Johnny Valium]

Hi,

all you need to know about the UAD card you'll find
here. Sounds impressive to me. Do you have one, Taiwaz? And no, it's not a sound card. You will still need your Audiowerk.

I own a ds2416. I can't recommend it to you because I don't really know what you want to do with your setup. The card gives you 16 channels with 4 band parametric eq, dynamics and 2 effects processors. If you don't plan to get beyond those 16 channels, it's a really good and reliable card. But if you need more audio tracks or other plugins, your 233mhz proc might get into trouble because, while the processing of the effects itself is done on the card, the bussing between the host application (in your case logic) and the card needs quite some processor power. The card is quite usable in logic although Cubase has a better integration. One advantage is that you can pick one up for very little money nowadays. A big disadvantage: Drivers are not updated anymore so if one day you switch to OS X you will not be able to use it anymore.

Greets
Johnny

[Teiwaz]

Yes, I am a very happy owner. I also have TDM hardware in a separate system and I can honestly say in confidence that the UAD-1 card outstrips at a thousand paces the equivalent plug-ins on TDM (the info is provided on Johnny's link to the Mackie/UAD-1 site...check out the comparison charts between UA stuff and Bomb Factory - check out how far off the mark a "Bum" Factory Pultec EQ is compared to the UAD-1's Pultec EQ!! BF's 'version' of the Pultec doesn't behave at all like a real Pultec...



I discovered this personally whilst comparing the bottom end of the 2 different Pultec plugs. I dialled in a very low sub frequency of around 50hz on the UAD-1 Pultec, and then tried doing the same thing on the BF Pultec. During testing on the UAD-1 Pultec, my KRK speakers cones were moving considerably with the pronounced 50hz frequency...and when I switched in the BF Pultec...the speaker cones STOPPED moving. The BF Pultec actually cancels out/rolls off frequencies below 70hz or so...that was a revelation, I can tell you. The graphs shown on the Mackie/UAD-1 site confirmed what I already knew...



And you have to PAY for the BF version of the Pultec?!?!



Anyway, enough poking at BF's 'products'....

You would have everything to do what you need with a newer mac and a UAD-1 card, is the basic no-frills answer. I would keep the Audiowerk 2 (a good card), though the folks at Universal Audio just brought out the UAD-1 MkII which has an ADAT I/O built into it...useful for people who own a digital mixing desk with ADAT I/O...I use a MOTU 2408MkII system as an interface with my UAD-1 card.



The only drawback with the UAD-1 (and believe me, I see this as a minor drawback) is the fact that there are still problems when inserting it's own powered plug-ins on live inputs...I'm eagerly anticipating a cure for this from Universal soon...

[karambos]

Many thanks for these informative replies - it's just what I need to know so please keep 'em coming! Meanwhile more questions, if I may:

I've thought about what you've been saying and it's occurred to me that any such card is there essentially to deal with effects processing - is that right?
The audio file itself is kept on my hard drive and is sent to the card for processing. If I got a DSP card, the only thing I'd have to worry about is the bus
speed. Right? I can understand that if I apply processor intensive effects like reverbs to several tracks then I get an overload (at about 6-8 tracks)
but why do I get an overload at about 10 - 12 tracks of audio with no effects at all? What's overloading - my CPU or my soundcard?

Teiwaz - you say you use the MOTU 2408MkII system as an interface with your UAD-1. Please excuse my ignorance but what sort of interface would that be? I
assume it's an audio interface (presumably with 8 ins and 8 outs with 24 bit capability). If that's that case - can you connect to your mixing desk with that?
That would replace my Audiowerk 2, right? In other words - you don't need a soundcard with your set-up - the MOTU IS your "soundcard" - am I right?

Johnny - Essentially, I would just like to get quadruple the amount of tracks that I now get without constantly overloading the CPU and having to bounce down
all the time. I really would like to go OSX one day (not for a while though) and I would like to ideally get a card that would "take me there". If you get me.

thx

karambos

[Johnny Valium]

HI Kamambos,

but why do I get an overload at about 10 - 12 tracks of audio with no effects at all? What's overloading - my CPU or my soundcard?

Logic has two monitors, one for cpu and one for disk usage. So you just have to read them and they will tell you. Usually, your computer should be able to play back 12 audio tracks at 16 bit and 44000 Hertz even with the slowest hard drive. You can try higher buffer settings that take away strain from the drive and put in on the ram. I you want 48 audio tracks you should get yourself the fastest ide controller card and buy the fastest hard drive and even then
I'm not an expert but I think this would maybe put too much strain on your system even with no effects. You know what just happened to me? I just ended a singing session where we put lots of background choirs on a finished playback. We ended up with about 26 tracks of 24 bit 48000 Hz audio and digital performer put out warnings about there being too much processing strain all over all that with very little effects. It finally crashed upon saving the song which corrupted the song file that cannot be opened again now
I will have to sit down tomorrow and restore the whole session from a previous version of the song I - thank god - have. Now that's with a g3 b/w 400, the buildt in ide controller and the fastest Maxtor ide drive there is. Think about it. Of course, I have my audio on a seperate drive. Do you?

the MOTU IS your "soundcard" - am I right?

Most of the multi I/O units consist of a pci card and a breakout box which holds the plugs and the a/d converters. They are not only cards, they don't have Midi and they don't have stored sounds. You don't want to confuse them with a Soundblaster that's why they're called Audio Interfaces.

I would suggest you to get a fast hard drive only for your audio and then try again how many tracks it will give you. If you think it' still not enough think about getting a new ide controller or upgrade your computer.

Greets
Johnny

[Teiwaz]

Karambos,

Yes, the 2408MkII is a rack mount unit, with a special cable called "audiowire" that connects it to it's own PCI-324 card in the Mac.

The 2408MkII has 8 analog ins/outs on balanced jacks, and 3 ADAT I/O's (one of those shares the same first 8 channels as the analog in/outs.)

Replacing your Audiowerk card is not going to make much of a difference in terms of CPU performance/track count. As I said before, you will need a newer faster Mac and an ATA Seagate Barracuda or IBM Deskstar 7200 rpm hard drive for audio in order to overcome such limitations.

It's just the features on the 2408MkII that are more plentiful than on the Audiowerk, such as 3 ADAT I/O's, stable wordclock, SPDIF (also standard on the Audiowerk.) It all depends mainly on if you need 3 ADAT I/O's and so forth.

Check out the specs on the 2408. They have the MkIII out now (zero monitoring latency on this new version.)

http://www.motu.com/

That's it!

[MrD.]

You have received some excellent replys...
To consider : Amount of tracks is related to Hard disk speed and fragmation... Older macs (and even some of the new ones) comes with 'only' 5400rpm - a decent firewire one (if your computer has firewire) will help alot.

As for DSP cards, let me recoment the TC Powercore. Much better relation with Mac. Comes with effective, usable plugs (compressor, eq and 2 great reverbs) I think now a days they even thow in the Master*3 (multi-compressor) and the D-coder
I love this card, it finaly allow me to mix broadcast quality!!

[karambos]

Dear MrD.

many thanks for the recommendation. Do you have any opinion on the UAD-1 (from Mackie, I think) and/or the Creamware XTC? I believe these cards all do pretty much the same thing but the UAD-1 is "better" for mastering effects - like EQ, limiting etc whereas the TC Powercore is "better" for delays and effects in general. I have no idea about the XTC.

thanks

karambos