Mic It Or Plug It? Grr. Options

[Salsashark]

So yeah. What do you guys say? I'm recording in my tiny room. Should I record using mics, and if so, what should I be looking for? Or.... do you guys know of any good, cheap (ish) interfaces so I plug in and record. Do not have money for digi 001 so yeah something below that. I have an iBook. Any help is good. Thank you.

[Salsashark]

Mainly guitar music.

[xingu]

You're gonna need a bigger boat! (Sorry, just my little ode to your ID)

You say digi001 is too much - what exactly is your budget? I'd say MBox (comes with ProTools LE software), which is somewhere around $500 but that might be more than what you want to spend. Need more info... (what's going along with this guitar music? additional live instruments or drum machines and virtual synths? how many tracks do you need? OSX or OS9? etc. etc. etc.)

As for how to record, that's a little out of my league, but my limited knowledge will say mics if your neighbors will put up with the noise and if not, consider going direct through a Line6 POD or Behringer's cheaper (and from what I read, generally respectable) V-Amp. Of course, those are more money, so again, what's your budget?

[Salsashark]

Ahh good ol' Clerks...

Isn't a digi001 like $1,000 bucks? That's why I had said it was a little too much. Somewhere along the lines of $500 sounds good. I have OSX. I was talking to xenonaut and he has given some damn good information on the mbox. Kinda sold me on it. Making noise is not a problem, but will be soon. (Going away to college) Getting a preamp would be nice, but you know as well as I do, there is nothing like that "live" sound.

I will be adding other instruments (Bass, Keys, Drums) later as well. Possibly even theremin. I am not totally against recording channels one at a time, that's not the biggest issue right now. Thanks for your help!

[xenonaut]

This thread seems to be more about how to get good guitar sound into the computer, and less about what software/audio interface to use, so I'll make a quick comment.

Obviously, you need to get the guitar sounding good ("amplified"), somehow. If you just plug a guitar into an audio interface (assuming that the interface has instrument-level inputs), it's going to sound pretty thin and twangy. I assume that you want your guitar to sound like it's going through an amp.

I think the *best* way to do that, is to play through an amp and mic the cabinet.

However, that can be a bit noisey, and depending on your living situation, may not always be practical. Other options fall into 2 categories: record the twangy direct sound and add amp sound to it within the computer, or use a hardware device with amp/cabinet emulation.

The first option is not appealing to me - I need to have the "vibe" of the amp while I'm playing. Others, however, are comfortable with this approach, and achieve decent results with a software plug in like AmpliTube (which I have played with and was impressed by, though not in the AmpliTube Live version) or Amp Farm. Note that if you use this method to get your amp sound, the latency required for A/D conversion, processing, and D/A conversion for monitoring will add a frustrating delay between what you hear and what you play. Don't expect to monitor yourself playing through a software plugin if you're trying to synch to existing tracks.

That leaves the second option. Solutions include preamps and effects units which include amp/cab emulation, like the SansAmp, the POD, the ART SGX2000, the Digitech GSP series, the Behringer V-Amp, etc. The "cabinet emulation" on my Carvin Quad-X preamp is fair (not great, but usable for rough demos); the record outs on my Mesa Boogie Triaxis are not so great (though Mesa Boogie does make a few products specifically designed for recording direct, like the Rectifier Recording preamp and the Formula preamp).

Also, some guitar effects units have started including USB ports. I don't know much about them, or their Mac-compatability (Line 6 claims that the guitar port is not Mac compatible, but I don't know if you might be able to get basic functionality out of it or not). But it might be possible that a device like this cold serve as an audio interface as well (though it would be somewhat limiting).

And again, I still think the best way is the old-fashioned way: put a decent mic in front of a cabinet and capture the sound at the speaker...

[T1mon]

Arg, why is this complicated?!
Somewhere in another thread somebody told me that it is possible to record the guitar directly with the interface but still with some distortion and then later I could change the sound with different plug-ins.
Well, I guess then I would have the latency problem again, eh?

It looks like I gotta get me an interface and a mic (plus a good synth program for the background like Kontakt) or just get a PODxt and Kontakt... that would be cheaper and I wouldn't have to worry about latency and wouldn't have to buy some single effects.

[xenonaut]

Arg, why is this complicated?!

T1mon,

It's really not - in fact, it's much easier than it has ever been in the past.

Really, it's very simple:

You want the sound of an amplified guitar. So, mic an amplifier, and you're all set.

OR, use a device which emulates the effect of mic-ing an amplifier. There are a ton of options out there.

As for the computer, well, that brings with it *some* complication (so far, computers always do). If you don't want to deal with that, and this whole thing is not fun/interesting for you, then pick up a conventional multitrack recorder, from Fostex, Tascam, Yamaha, or whomever you please.

If you want to work with the computer, all you have to do is choose a decent audio capture device and software package. Again, there are tons of them, and most of them are pretty good. It just depends on what you're trying to accomplish, and how much money you can spend.

As for latency, look: latency is a problem when you are trying to record, especially if you are trying to synch your time to existing tracks, because it results in a delay between you play and what you hear. This is easy enough to avoid, *if* you are not depending on monitoring your playing by listening to it after it has gone from analog to digital, sent over a USB bus, been processed and then sent back out over a USB bus to be converted back to analog so youo can hear it. So, monitor your live playing in the analog domain. You can use a small mixer for this, or some audio interfaces support zero latency or "low-latency monitoring" (where the audio is digitized and then switched back to analog within the interface, so it doesn't have to go through the bus and into the computer before you hear it).

As for the PODxt: check Mac compatibility (as I said earlier, I know that Line 6 claims that the Guitar Port, which would otherwise be your cheapest option in that category, is NOT Mac compatible), and consider whether the PODxt will also serve as an acceptable audio interface for other sources which you might wish to capture (Vocals? Acoustic instruments? External drum machines, hardware samplers/sysnths, etc.?) before you paint yourself into a corner.

[T1mon]

Thx for always being so helpful, xenonaut!

I want to record with a computer because I would like to add drums, strings and some other (mostly realistic) sounds to the song. (probably with NI Kontakt if that's good?) So a multitrack recorder isn't a choice for me.

I already have DP4 and OSX so I have to build everything around that.

The PODxt is compatible with Mac but I would prefer a software solution. The M-Audio MobilePre USB which I want to buy has zero-latency monitoring so I guess that should work, right?

You said that there are a ton of devices that emulate the effect of mic-ing an amplifier, do you mean plug-ins like Amplitube? (not available as MAS yet...)

[Synthetic]

I only suggest recording by mic only if you have a suitable recording environement for it. Doesn't mean you have to be in a studio but if you have things on the walls that vibrate with low notes or lots of reverb... then you might want to consider just recording directly as this will most likely color your guitar sound and add unwanted noises.

just adding my 2 cents

I have this prob with my bass... I record directly from a Boss GT6b pedal with digital coax out to my Digi001 for that reason. I have no suitable recording areas in my house for mic'ing bass so I go directly and luckily my pedal emulates different amps and cabinets for me

[rickenbacker]

Most audio interfaces now feature some form of direct monitoring feature to counteract the latency issue, so you should be able to find something to suit your budget. I was messing about with a Tascam US-122 USB interface yesterday - pretty good sound, very cheap solution for what it offers (including phantom power and MIDI I/O). Or how about a second-hand MOTU 828 (original version). Very nice preamps and FireWire, too.

For recording guitars, it's true that you can't beat an SM57 shoved up against the grille of a hot valve amp, but I also use a Marshall DP1 I think it is from time to time - it's a mini preamp the size of an FX pedal. It came out a few years before the whole Pod revolution and I think it died a death sales-wise, but it's got a cool sound if I want to record a Marshall stack simulation without annoying the neighbours. I see no reason why a new Pod won't do just as good a job. I've got a Bass Pod and it's great.

[xenonaut]

only suggest recording by mic only if you have a suitable recording environement for it. Doesn't mean you have to be in a studio but if you have things on the walls that vibrate with low notes or lots of reverb... then you might want to consider just recording directly as this will most likely color your guitar sound and add unwanted noises. I have this prob with my bass...

Synthetic - I would like to respectfully point out that I think that the mic/DI question is a little different for bass than it is for guitar. For one thing, bass is more likely to cause rattles than guitar (not say that it is not potentially a problem for guitar, as well, but I've never had it). For another, sometimes you want to get things like feedback with guitar, which is only possible by amping it. Also, there is a long tradition of going DI with bass, but not with guitar, simply because they are different instruments with different sonic characteristics.

That said, amp simulation has come a long way, and "faking it" is certainly an acceptable option. I prefer to mic my guitar amp (though I always record bass parts direct), but in practice, I live in an apartment and really can't make all that much noise, so I wind up recording most of my guitar stuff without mics, as well. So in the end, Synthetic, I think you're right that it is often the more practical alternative, and can certainly provide reasonable results.

You said that there are a ton of devices that emulate the effect of mic-ing an amplifier, do you mean plug-ins like Amplitube? (not available as MAS yet...)

T1mon, by "devices", I was talking about hardware solutions. There are effects units and preamps which also have cabinet simulation, there are devices specifically geared toward sound processing for direct recording, and there are devices intended to act as sound processors and computer audio interfaces (Line 6 Guitar Port and PODxt, Roland's Edirol UA-700, etc.). For software, the solutions which I'm personally familiar with include Line 6's Amp Farm, and IK's AmpliTube. I sometimes use AmpliTube, but my preference is to hear the sound of the guitar "amped" while I'm playing, and we've already talked about the latency problem using computer-based amp simulation to monitor live playing.

I didn't realize that you already had DP4. Digital Performer enjoys a pretty loyal following, I think, so you should be in good shape. If you're looking for the cheapest and easiest way to get decent tone into DP4, I would investigate cheap audio interfaces (perhaps even the iMic, but if not, something from M-Audio or Edirol should be available - but you might check with MOTU for info on interface compatability) and a used POD or (even cheaper, and reportedly quite good) Behringer V-Amp. Maybe a local music store has some of this stuff for you to check out? If you're in Germany, it should be no problem to find Behringer stuff, right? Or look at the Tascam US-122 that rickenbacker mentioned - I saw that the other day in a local shop, and it looks like promising, and solves the monitor mix/latency issue, apparently.

Salsashark - this was your thread, originally. I hope you're still finding it helpful and informative.

[T1mon]

So you're saying that if I'd use Amplitube I wouldn't be able to hear the amped sound?
I thought that's the whole point of it... and latency shouldn't be a problem with zero-latency monitoring right?
If not I guess I'll have to buy a POD or something like it and the US-122 or MobilePre USB. (plus an Oxygen 8 and probably NI Kompakt to make some good background tracks)

[rickenbacker]

Talking of the Tascam US-122, I just posted a review of it in the Studio Hardware forum. Might be worth reading if anyone is thinking of buying one.