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Écrit par : torchsong mer. 20 nov. 2002, 03:17

Hi, new girl here with lots of questions about hardware and software.
I've read just about everything I can that is somewhat related to my situation but still have ????

I am a cellist and vocalist and want to make backing tracks to play with live and also make demo recordings on my computer. I come from the portastudio school of home recordings so the MIDI stuff is making me nuts!

Here's what I have:
imac running OS 9.2
DX7
Boss DRmkII
Behringer Eurorack
MOTU Fast Lane
Metro 5
OMS 2.3.8 grrrrrrr.....
cello with pickup (although I usually am miked for studio recording)
guitars
cables

I've tried to keep the basic set up simple but am having problems with OMS I think. Metro doesn't seem to like to work with Free MIDI.
I am also having problems playing back audio after recording a track, how am I supposed to hear what I've played to do over dubs?

BTW, I downloaded Pro Tools Free to try it out and just can't get the thing to open (memory error 1,010) so I gave up and went with Metro instead because it was inexpensive to start.

Thanks for any help, this is a great site!

Écrit par : Levon River mer. 20 nov. 2002, 03:57

Hi, torchsong. First step of trouble-shooting is to exactly define the trouble. I know it all seems to run together in a lump when it's not working but the more specific you can be, the better. They left the DWIM command (Do What I Mean) out of OMS, so let's start there:

1. Is OMS recognizing the FastLane?

2. Have you created a configuration in OMS for your DX-7?

3. In your configuration, do you have the DX-7 "MIDI Out" going to a FastLane "MIDI In," and a FastLane "MIDI Out" going to the DX-7 "MIDI In"?

4. If all the above is in place, have you used the "Test Studio" menu item to see if everything is talking to everything else?

As for the audio:

1. Where is the audio out of your iMac going? Do you have headphones plugged into it or what?

Any specific information you can give about how you have things set up will help to exterminate the bugs.

Écrit par : torchsong mer. 20 nov. 2002, 07:56

Thanks for the reply
Yes to questions 1-4 and the audio is going through a pair of speakers hooked up to the computer.
Right now I only have the keyboard hooked up to keep things as simple as possible

I guess what I really need help with is the @#$ software. The manual isn't always helping

Écrit par : Levon River mer. 20 nov. 2002, 14:21

Good on 1-4. But you earlier said: "...the MIDI stuff is making me nuts!" and: "...am having problems with OMS I think." I still have absolutely no idea how that is translating into actual practice if you've done 1-4 with OMS. What problems are you having? Recording MIDI information into Metro? Playing back a MIDI track and having it drive the DX-7?

I'd love to help you, but, I'll say it again: specifics are what is needed if there's going to be any chance of helping you. Saying "what I really need help with is the @#$ software" is about as broad a statement as you can make. Is this with some aspect of the MIDI functions in Metro, or with the audio functions, or both? If both, separate them out and say specifically what you are trying to do and specifically what happens (or doesn't happen )when you try to do *that*.

Then we'll get all over it like white on rice and have you cookin' in no time.

Whaddaya say? Want to provide some actual clue to what the problem is? You're going to have to, because my crystal ball got broke when I tried to dribble it.

Écrit par : torchsong jeu. 21 nov. 2002, 20:05

I went back to try and reasses where I was having problems within Metro but wound up spending most of the day dealing with crashes of all my music related software. Most of the crashes had error codes of 1, 2 or 3 which I realize are memory related.

I have plenty of memory and hard disk space (320m ram and 19 gig hard disk) and have adjusted application memory accordingly. I'm not running virtual memory

I ran Norton Utilities and came back with only minor errors in Metro and OMS. They were fixed and my hard disk is defragmented.

I reinstalled Metro and OMS to no avail. Even a couple of demos that I downloaded to try out were not working. (Live & FM)

Before I decided to use Metro I had tried a download of ProTools free and it would only crash so I gave up on it. I also forgot to mention that QuickTime is also crashing and that whenever I try to open the OMS Preferred Device control panel it also crashes.
I knew I would have some technical difficulties when I got into this but this is ridiculous

I think I've covered all that's going wrong and now if I go to open the apps they will probably work because I posted it here...
bombs away!!!

Écrit par : Levon River jeu. 21 nov. 2002, 23:00

Girl, you got more than MIDI problems. But I've been there, and I know it ain't funny. Have you broken anything valuable yet? Make sure you get all the pets out of the room before you have another go at it.

Okay, seriously: you've just got to be sitting on some pretty dripping-fang system-related issues. There are some methodical de-bug steps, though.

One thing you oughta do is zap your p-ram:

1. Restart the Mac

2. When you hear the start-up chime press and hold Cmd-Opt-P-R, making sure that the caps lock key is not depressed. Hold these keys UNTIL the machine chimes again.

3. Reset the date and time, AppleTalk settings, printer ports, etc.

Next thing to investigate is any possible SCSI problems. Do you have any SCSI devices connected? One little thing wrong in that can wreak absolute havoc in all directions. If you have any SCSI devices connected, shut down your computer and disconnect them ALL, and see how things run then. If fine, then you've got to look at SCSI IDs and termination before you reconnect the SCSI stuff.

And: Have you tried doing any of this merry music making with nothing but a basic and stripped-down Apple extensions set, plus OMS? If not, please start there. Just make a copy the most fundamental Base OS 9.x set of extensions in Extensions Manager, and go in and turn off *everything* you won't need for music, and turn on OMS and any of its related extensions, and then press the "Doom" button and see how much blue smoke starts pouring out of the exhaust vents. If none, then you might be on the trail of extension conflicts.

If all else fails, you may need to do a clean reinstall of your system software.

And if *none* of that works, I might have the number for an exorcist...

Écrit par : Levon River jeu. 21 nov. 2002, 23:07

Wait a minute! Did I just hear you say "Norton Utilities"?!?!

Now, I know tastes and experiences vary, and I have no doubt that the next statement may bring out a mob with pitchforks and torches, but I wouldn't let Norton and his Utilities in the same state where I was trying to do music, much less on the same computer. I mean, when people come in here they get frisked to make sure they don't have a copy of Norton Utilities on them.

I will not give any alternative recommendations, because I don't think DiskWarrior has solicited my endorsement, and might even consider legal action if they got it.

Écrit par : Teiwaz ven. 22 nov. 2002, 02:05

The alternative to Norton Utilities is Tech Tool Pro. It gives you everything for looking after your data/hardware in one single package.

Écrit par : torchsong ven. 22 nov. 2002, 21:00

new day, same s**t...

Every application on my computer works properly except anything having to do with MIDI. I took your suggestions Levon and still no success.

As far as those other utilities goes, it's all I've ever used but I may give TechTools a try. Apple computers are all I've ever owned and used except for the dreadful years that I worked for a record company
I won't be making any changes in systems but this is all very frustrating

I'm not looking to make CD's at home, just trying to put some ideas down and maybe make a few interesting tracks that I can take to a proper studio to record later.

My idea was that if I get my existing set up to work and learn to use it well maybe I could get some new toys later.... I've got a list!

Écrit par : Levon River ven. 22 nov. 2002, 22:42

Hmmm. Well, then, let me ask you these burning questions. Since it's an iMac, can I safely assume that it's a USB FastLane, not a serial one? If USB, do you have the latest/correct drivers from MOTU for your system? Finally, have you tried installing FreeMIDI and turning off OMS, just to focus on your DX-7>FastLane>iMac>FastLane>DX-7 and make sure that everything is fine up to that point, without intervening software?



Well, see! Taking my suggestions was yer first mistake!

We ain't done yet. Let's see what the questions above turn up. This CAN be solved...

....and there's always the exorcist to fall back on...

Écrit par : torchsong sam. 23 nov. 2002, 23:15

Light candle and commence...

[QUOTE]Hmmm. Well, then, let me ask you these burning questions. Since it's an iMac, can I safely assume that it's a USB FastLane, not a serial one? If USB, do you have the latest/correct drivers from MOTU for your system? Finally, have you tried installing FreeMIDI and turning off OMS, just to focus on your DX-7>FastLane>iMac>FastLane>DX-7 and make sure that everything is fine up to that point, without intervening software?

Yes, Fast Lane is USB and I have the latest drivers
Free MIDI is installed but wasn't running so I turned off OMS and started Free MIDI, no crashes so I checked the configuration, everything seems to be working, meaning a signal looks like it is coming from the keyboard except now I have no audio.

I have a pair of computer monitors hooked up to the imac.
Would I want to make an audio connection via the mixer? I don't believe I have the proper size connectors to do that.

Where does QuickTime fit into all of this?

As for Metro and other software, do they only work best with OMS???
I won't ask why

Thanks for all the help!

Écrit par : damann dim. 24 nov. 2002, 04:53

[quote=torchsong,Nov 23 2002, 22:15]
[QUOTE]

As for Metro and other software, do they only work best with OMS???
I won't ask why

Thanks for all the help![/quote]
hi torchsong,
nothing works "best" with oms unless, as in the case of digi, it insists on oms to WORK AT ALL!
reading this post, it really seems that you've configured free midi/oms correctly etc.
it has to be back to levon rivers' extension clash theory. did you try the system 9 set with the oms or free midi extensions as the only active 3rd party drivers?
are you running your music apps on a system that's also used for graphics, internet etc purposes?
for instance, yahoo mesenger & plenty of other non- music apps can screw things up.
consider the fact that maybe metro is the problem.
try pt le again, same problem?
versions, drivers, all up to date?
seems like the problem became different when you switched to freemidi, no?
metro famously dosen't really support midi! unlike digi, they at least don't pretend. s**t i have 2 b careful here.
techtool & or diskwarrior ARE essential to ensure your system isn't the problem. as levon says, stay away from norton!
keep the posts coming, good luck...

Écrit par : Tone dim. 24 nov. 2002, 06:43

Greetings all

I read the comment by damann on MIDI concerning the Digi and thought it was a good point to jump in.
I started home recording only this year (using a 001 and a Korg Triton Le WS ) and I am happy with the general progress made - thanks to advice from yourselves and other excellent forums.
I must say, the MIDI facilities on my 001 have been a godsend. I can get a tight rhythm section, change the groove and randomise to my hearts/ears content. (and it's flexibility makes it bloody addictive!). Cheating? Maybe, but for somebody at my entry level who is quite far off making the step-up to professional studios and session musicians - its superb!
Now my queries;
1. A common point of critique from others kind enough to listen and offer advice on my songs is the "cheesy" sound from my Triton. Particularly backgroung fillers (strings, soft synths etc) and keyboard sounds. I know you get what you pay for but, like everyone, I would really like to give my comps a better sound. Does anyone out there have any suggestions where and how I can improve (or add to) these sounds. [There is a provision for using a separate sampler card but I didn't buy it and wouldn't know how to get the best from it if I did.]
Maybe a stupid question but I have to ask.

2. I experimented with the "Compressor" plug-in (on the Master Fader only!) with excellent results - more by luck than good management. Are there set rules which elements (Vox/Inst?) usually require compression and under what circumstances would a Limiter be preferred to a Compressor?

I trust the MIDI comments and these two queries are approriate to the forum

Thanks to all
Tony

Écrit par : Levon River dim. 24 nov. 2002, 16:37

Definitely appriate to the forum, Tone (if you're operating in OS 9.x), but you might want to copy yer message and start it as a new thread since it wanders far afield from torchsong's woes that we're trying to get unknotted. (I'm not trying to do the moderators' job; just think you'd get more responses if you put your questions into a relevantly-titled thread of your own creation.)

The short answer to getting better/more "real" sounds into your mixes is definitely "sampler" (or sample-playback unit, if you don't want to get into tweaking or creating sampled instruments). There are too many available options to list, both hardware and software. If you're on a tight budget, definitely check out the shareware VSamp software sampler; it works as a VST instrument or standalone, and also reads Soundfont and SampleCell format. There's a world of free Soundfonts out there to get you started, some of them damn good. The program CDXtract will give you accessibility to almost every sample format out there, and the ability to convert to almost any format you need.

Hope that puts a spark in yer plug.

Écrit par : Levon River dim. 24 nov. 2002, 17:12

Oh, that's a blessing. That's religion right there. That's manna from the skies. Now we're getting somewhere...



Let's keep the MIDI and audio issues separate, or we'll just be back into a taffy-pull.

From all that's gone before, it seems now like the culprit has got to be OMS (Now *there's* a gasp-making surprise ). Okay, now, I haven't wrestled with this beast in months, and somebody said it changed recently, but there was a function in FreeMidi for it to "Emulate OMS." (Somebody sed recently that now it goes the other way somehow, but I haven't read up on it. Pray some of these other MIDI jockeys will wade in here soon and share their wisdom.) But have you addressed this issue of OMS acting like FreeMidi (for the Fastlane) and/or FreeMidi masquerading as OMS (for Metro)? We may have uncovered the black heart of this anti-musical monster.

If you track down what the latest state-of-the-confusion is between FreeMidi><OMS emulation, and get just *that* set up by the book, with yer synth audio outputs NOT going through the computer, but just to somewhere you can hear it, and then run Metro and see what happens with recording and playing back MIDI, that will be a further narrow-down.

Only when the MIDI is working should you start tackling the audio part. They are separate, separate, separate issues. Trying to handle both at once is the fast train to Bedlam.


<A-*hem*!> You just never listen to a word I say, do you?

Adapters are dirt cheap. We'll get there. The *first* step is getting your MIDI equipment talking to your computer and software without crashing the machine.


Aiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeee!

Leave it alone, girl! Seriously, it's not in this picture at the moment.



I don't know specifically about Metro in its current incarnation. But if you debug the FreeMidi><OMS emulation quandry, it shouldn't matter. The problems arise when there's one thing expecting to find FreeMidi, another expecting to find OMS. The two were competing proprietary <Spit!> methods of handling MIDI when they both started which did not co-exist well at all at the System level, both trying to take over. MOTU relented and provided an OMS emulation option in FreeMidi. That seemed to work well to solve most problems. As I said, I don't know exactly what happened after that; Opcode went belly up.



Always been a sucker for a cello.


P.S. to damann: just read yours, and Metro does in fact support MIDI; it started out as the MIDI-only companion to Deck. Then Deck and Metro got orphaned to different companies. Metro grew audio capabilities; Deck is still audio-only. Maybe Deck is what you were thinking of. Metro and Deck have the same parents.

Écrit par : Tone lun. 25 nov. 2002, 02:11

Levon

Thanks for the direction

I suspected Sound Effects/Engineering may be a tad too far away from these forum subjects.
I'll keep surfing, starting with the name you gave me, and see what comes up.

I had to try though

Tony

Écrit par : Levon River lun. 25 nov. 2002, 02:34

No, no, you misapprehended me: Your questions and topics are as welcome as the flowers in May here, and you're likely to get some very expert help and direction in these forums. I was just suggesting that you start a new thread (topic) with a title to it that will attract the attention of others here who are knowledgable in those particular areas. Right at the bottom of this message there's a button that says "New Topic". Just click that and you're off and running.

Écrit par : Levon River sam. 30 nov. 2002, 03:36

Ummmm, torchsong? Where'd you go?

Oh, well... Making music, I hope.

Écrit par : torchsong mer. 4 déc. 2002, 07:51

aah yeah, playing music the old fashioned way... with a bow!

I took a break for holiday and family stuff, thinking that when I returned to this everything would work...

Extensions seem to be under control, no conflicts but I still have no sound when I play the DX7 and no sound when testing the set up in OMS or with Free MIDI. What gives???
I made separate sets of extensions for each application so I'm running one or the other (OMS/FreeMIDI) not both at the same time. (and no graphics stuff either!)
Will this help?

ProTools Free still refuses to work

It is embarrassing to have to post these requests for help because it probably is something really basic causing the problem I still have my hair but the dent in my head is getting bigger

I tried Metro first because of cost (cheep!) but now I'm wondering if it was worth the headache

Écrit par : kaboombahchuck mer. 4 déc. 2002, 09:45

Well hello!
Sorry I did not look at this one sooner.
When I use metro, the first track does not seem to have any playback sound after being recorded, so here is what I do. I record the first track, then I export it. Then I delete the track I just recorded and reimport the one I just exported. Sounds kinda wierd, but it works. Usually I only have to do this to the first track. All others should work fine. Also go to setup (I think) and choose digital recording. Click on recording options and check play through. This way You can hear what you are playing when it comes to keyboards. As far as the midi stuff goes, I'm gonna have to look at the string of posts so far and see if I can help you out on that one.

Oh, also make sure that you choose sound in in your sound controll panel and check sound through. I am also running a behringer (2004 eurorack) so when you look at you gain, set it all the way down (in the sound controll panel), this will keep the evil hiss monster at bay.

I am using OMS with Metro, but it took me a long while to get it to work. If you click on my signature, It will take you to the site where my music is. All of the songs there was done using Metro 5 and an iMac. The only song that was done using the midi sequencer is "no title".

Écrit par : Levon River ven. 6 déc. 2002, 17:44

<Sigh> At least it doesn't have ins and outs.


Ahhh, yes: the metaphysical approach to MIDI. Tried it many times.


Good on the extensions. You're absolutely going to have to break down this MIDI vs. audio mess into two separate, distinct parts, and there are only two ways I know of to go about it, both of which include being able to hear your MIDI device (the DX-7) one way or another:

1. Ignore computer audio to solve the MIDI aspects, which means you'll have to have the output of the DX-7 either going directly>amp>speakers (or listening to it with headphones) while you debug the MIDI, or,

2. Ignore computer MIDI problems completely while solving the computer audio situation, meaning you run the output of the DX-7 through the computer, and do *nothing* with the MIDI part, only play the DX-7 yourself by hand until you KNOW you are hearing it through the computer (and/or until you get recorded tracks playing back so you can hear them--I've gotten lost, now, on whether you can get NO sound out, or only from your DX-7).

Once you have ONE or the OTHER solved completely, then and *only* then should you start on the other. I've said this till I'm blue in the face, but you still seem to be trying to solve both simultaneously.



Of course it will help. Anything you can do to reduce variables helps when you're trying to narrow down the problem.



Come on, torchsong: what does *that* mean? Never mind; rhetorical question. But it's just adding more confusion. You need to solve first your audio *OR* MIDI problems (ONE and *only* one of those), then solve the *other* (audio or MIDI), *then* you can start determining wheter programs that use both of those things are working or not. And not until then. And the programs work.



Lots and lots of people go through it to begin with, so it's no cause for embarrassment--unless you persist (a-HEM!) in not doing the things people suggest to solve it.



Oh, that's normal: it's when you start denting the *furniture* that you need to start getting concerned...



Horsepuckey. Fortunately kaboombahchuck is on hand as a fellow Metro user and can guide you through those whitewaters. But you ain't even got yer raft wet yet, and won't have until you separate out the audio and MIDI situations and get both working with certainty. Then is when you can start exploring the eccentricities of any given DAW or sequencer packages--and not until then.

Écrit par : torchsong mer. 11 déc. 2002, 08:14

Thanks for your help Kaboombachuck and Levon. Unfortunately I am still without sound from my keyboard.

Everything else seems to be working ok (no more crashes) I just can't seem to get a signal when I test my set up in OMS.
I want to use the DX7 as a controller, could this be where I am running into problems? Should I just be trying to get the keyboard sound directly?
I get sound through headphones, no problem.

As far as ProTools Free goes, it was something that I thought I would try before I ended up with Metro. It would crash every time I tried to launch it so I gave up any hope of ever trying it out. I've worked with producers who use ProTools and swear by it but for me it is not to be.

Frustration has slowed down the pursuit of my MIDI dream/nightmare but I am determined to make sense of all this....

Écrit par : kaboombahchuck mer. 11 déc. 2002, 10:02

Welcome back!
First things first... Are you able to get the sound of your keyboard into the mac? And are you able to record the sound. Also are you able to playback the sound you just recorded to play back (in metro)? Let's get that working before moving on to the night mare of midi! You should go ahead and run the sound of your mixer out into the mac. That way when you are sucessful at audio recording, at least you won't be totoally stuck. By that I mean you will be able to record vocals, other instruments, and be able to mess around with the keyboard. That will give you something ineresting to do while gstting the midi mess straightened out. Any way I'll wait for you answer to these questions before moving on.
I am assuming that you know that midi is not an audio signal, and that you will have to make an audio connection from the keyboard to the computer regaurdless.

Écrit par : BagHun mer. 11 déc. 2002, 20:06

Shall I jump in at this point? Yes!
---------------------------------------------
From the Digidesign Answerbase:

Error 1010 when launching Pro Tools results in the application not opening.
This error can be caused by a corrupted OMS application.
Remove all the OMS software including the Opcode folder, the OMS folder in the system folder and the OMS control panel and extension. Then do a reinstall from the OMS installer on the Pro Tools CD.
Another possible cause of this problem is a corrupted system folder. This can be fixed by repairing or replacing the system folder.
---------------------------------------------

Torchsong:

From the above quote I'd say you've definitely got something going on that needs to be fixed before you can expect ANYthing to work properly. Also, important in installing Pro Tools is following the instructions, and OMS is supposed to be installed AFTER Pro Tools. You would need to toss everything OMS related, including prefs, before installing PT.

If you ever get PT FREE running there's a free app called "UglyVSTi" that will enable you to route VST instruments into Pro Tools. Check out my response to another post:

http://www.macmusic.org/agora/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=4871&s=&lang=EN

Écrit par : Levon River jeu. 12 déc. 2002, 09:18

Well, torchsong, you've drawn a crowd and are getting lots of help.

I'm glad the crashing problems are gone; that's progress. I'm sure all these program-specific advices you're getting are excellent, but I won't even go near them until you are getting sound from your keyboard, because if you don't have the basics nailed down, everything that follows accumulates variables exponentially.

So on the SOUND from your keyboard issue (*not* the MIDI issue), here is the checklist based on the little I know about your set-up:

1. Way back in your second message you said "the audio is going through a pair of speakers hooked up to the computer." Then in a later message you said "Would I want to make an audio connection via the mixer? I don't believe I have the proper size connectors to do that." So step one is determining where the AUDIO OUT of your DX-7 is going. So: where is it going? Wherever it's currently going, like if it's routed to your hair dryer , you've got to get the AUDIO OUTS of the DX-7 going to some kind of AUDIO IN on the computer if you want to be able to record AUDIO from the DX-7 on your computer using your music program(s). In that case, the answer to your question of "Would I want to make an audio connection via the mixer" is "Yes," and so you're going to have to get the proper size connector to go directly to the audio in of the iMac--or you're going to have to get an audio interface (probably a USB audio interface) to sit between your mixer and your computer. If you just want to go straight from the mixer to the iMac "mic" input, you'll need an adapter that will take two cables from the L/R outs of your mixer and combine them into a stereo mini-jack that will fit that "mic" input on the iMac.

2. Assuming for the moment that you're going to get that adapter and route the AUDIO OUTPUT of the DX-7 (plus your cello pickup, mics, or whatever) to inputs of the mixer, then route the AUDIO OUTPUT of your mixer directly into the iMac, then all you really have to do (once the adapter is in place) is go into the sound control panel and make sure it's configured to take input from that iMac "mic" input port.

At that moment, you should then be able to hear whatever is going through your mixer, or I'll eat my hat. And I'm on a felt-free diet, so please get this working, and report back for further confusion.