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Écrit par : xfiles jeu. 29 août 2002, 18:27

Dear macmusicians.
As a long time reader, i would first like to thank all the macmusic staff for their great and profitable work.

As a professional producer and songwriter, i've been using Digidesign products since their very beginning (my first digi was a SoundTools). I'm familiar with the idea of upgrading computer based solutions as the technology permanently evolves but I expect to get something out of it.

Therefore I am VERY disapointed with Digidesign's attitude towards their customers. It seems to be nowadays a generality for manufacturers (including Apple) to sell promises instead of true improvements as well as treating their customers of "walking wallets"...

I was planning to invest in a new Protools HD, for our main room, but the closer I look at it, the more i get the feeling that it is a very uncleaver choice. I really wonder if it's worth the money.

The truth is that nothing is EVER compatible between Digidesign products. The only solution for my studio to be up to date is:

1- Change ALL my digidesign hardware. This means upgrading for a very expensive price, all my processing cards (mix cube and 2 mix farms that i have bought only 10 month ago).

2- Throw out my 4 TDM SampleCell cards (knowing that there is nothing to replace them exept Soft-SampleCell which will never give me the 64 stereo voices needed for emulating symphonics with Miroslav collection for exemple). What an improvment...

3- I will also have to change my brand new USD as well as my three 888 interfaces. (I know I can use them if I buy 3 new Digi interfaces just to connect my old ones). Wow !!! Great deal !!!

4- Most plug-ins (ie TC) are still NOT compatible with HD systems... Anyway, I know I'll have to PAY expensive updates JUST to stay compatible. Who cares, i'm rich!?

5- Major sequencers including my favorite (Logic Audio) don't currently support ProTools HD.
I guess i will have to do with the ridiculous MIDI features of PT 5.

6- I was expecting Digidesign (the big leader) to announce an OS X version of their softwares but they simply let their competitors do it... Knowing (as Steeve Jobs announced it) that the new Mac product line will only support OS X by January, How much $$$ will I have to spend again to upgrade my henceforth costly Digi set up (Plugs and why not hardware again?)

7- BTW Thanks for strongly advising me to buy a very expensive Geronimo 2000 video card that will never be supported by OS X according to Appian themselves.

8- I've heard of big problems with the new Digidesign sync interface.

9- Best of all, I have been told that Digidesign may change their approach and favorise their development on PC's. I guess I will just have to upgrade again...

10- Does anyone at Digidesign care about their customers desesperatly waiting for a simple and efficient way to "direct connect" the growing collection of the amazing VST instruments.

All theses points lead me to reconsider my next investments. Considering it is nowaday easy to find mix farms at an affordable price and that ProTools mix systems are rock solid, I would suggest any "Digidesign shareholder" to wait and see...

Meanwhile I will certainly buy a new G4 just to experiment alternative solutions. The main problems with theses new compititors is that they are good looking, they offer great possibilities, they support many popular standarts and are a hell of a lot cheaper.


Cheers,

Écrit par : Synthetic jeu. 29 août 2002, 19:51

I totally agree with you about Digidesign business practices but... as many people are finding out... big business is in it for big businesses. Makes lots of sense right lol. A lot of companies (music related or not) cater to the customers with the biggest pockets first then everything else trickles down to the consumer (unless its a company like Remco, Pyramid, Squire, or Jensen who target the smaller pockets).

I just read an article in Electronic Musician mag regarding the whole new ProTools HD lineup with a review. They did mention that it was much easier to start out with a fresh system than trying to upgrade due to incompatible devices, plugins and the cost. But, the one thing they did really like about the system was that it was one of the best sounding tracking systems they had heard at the 192khz sampling level. They did tests with a mixplus system and compared the new HD system and were shocked by the difference. They claim it was superb in clarity and gave instruments more of a three demensional sound had more depth and even a bit more presence.

So, in my opinion... if I were lucky enough to have the older ProTools TDM setup ( i am just lucky to have the Digi001)... I would most likely just stay with it and keep it as up to date as possible. I can't really see the cost justification of the PT HD unless you owned a studio and it was determined to be the best choice for clients who were bringing in good cash to pay for services. I think this was Digidesign's idea for marketing. They were catering the bigger studios first and then maybe they would a few sales that are not exactly in the pro industry per say to give them a smaller amount of sales. I work in advertising and this sounds like their plan but... its also just an opinion for what it's worth

Écrit par : JackC jeu. 29 août 2002, 20:01

Hi Phil,

I sympatise completely! I bought a Mix+ system, 888's, Geronimo Card, USD, AV Option etc. two years ago. I've used the new HD System; sounds great...... so what!
I think I'm going to let my PT System just fizzile out into non-compatible existence. I'm not paying Digi another huge amount of cash for a system that doesn't work properly (took me three months and two Digidesign personnel to get my existing system properly operational).
I'm looking at a Logic Audio 5 system on OSX with a new lightning fast DP Mac and a MOTU 2408 MkIII front-ended with Apogee AD & DA 16's.
The latency on a 'native' OSX system is less than current ProTools TDM latencies. Logic supports all VST Instruments & Plugs etc. as well as Reason. What more can one ask for? Personally I think Protool's days as the 'industry standard' are numbered . Plus Logic's ESX24 Sampler, Vocoder, EVP88 Piano, Clavinet and now their Hammond simulator are amazing! It's the old cliche of 'use your ears'. I've heard albums that have been recorded on Cubase VST with a 2408 that sound fantastic.
Good luck with your dilemma, I know what I would do...

Écrit par : prutulz ven. 30 août 2002, 13:10

i totally agree with you phil. Except for people who need 96 or 192 kHz sampling, PT HD is just an expensive useless upgrade.

The lack of OSX announcement is also terrific IMHO, specially from Digidesign!
I'm afraid that the PC switch rumor, may explain this...

Écrit par : DANO10 ven. 30 août 2002, 14:43

Ah men to all of the above. I switched to DP3 last year and am very happy. Dan10

Écrit par : tao067 ven. 30 août 2002, 17:09

I work as an engineer at Spark in Emeryville where the tests you mentioned were performed and i must say that HD DOES sound better - get if you can.

I have it from very good sources that OSX DIGI drivers are on the way

PS - LOGIC IS HD compatable

tao

Écrit par : bixpender sam. 31 août 2002, 05:16

the HD update besides updating the quality is also a very smart way to kill ALL piracy at least for know on all pro tools plug-ins. smart but i hate them for it. so i think it's a more usefull update for the 3rd party developers rather than anyone else. i just got me a HD2 system and the 192 I/O but have no money left for the dog damn EXPENSIVE plug-ins. so pirates get hacking! :-D ARRRRRRR

Écrit par : theB94 sam. 31 août 2002, 09:51

I work at a well known studio in Los Angeles and most of the producers and engineers that own a PT Mix rig are not in a hurry to get a HD rig. Those that do not own one of course get HD, but that would only make sense. The 888s are still standard and if you are only doing music, I see no real reason to switch to HD. If its really a big deal, pick one 192 up and use the legacy port to link up the 888s. If I was in your situation, I would wait and see what happens when Digidesign announces osx compatibility. I'm sure it will be either a great difference (yeah right) or no difference. As of right now though, it sounds like you have a great rig and you should stick with it.

Écrit par : theB94 sam. 31 août 2002, 09:54

By the way, the first client that came in the studio with an HD rig (about 5 months ago) watched his sync take a shit on him within the first 15 minutes of hooking it up. I should know, I was the runner that had to get him another one.

Écrit par : prutulz dim. 1 sept. 2002, 02:43

Écrit par : damann dim. 1 sept. 2002, 03:13

i should mention that upgrading to "hd" isn't anywhere near as expensive as you might think it is.
i should also mention the fact that i let my pro-tools rig "fizzle out" and have never been happier!
digidesign are a bunch of stnuc! their software sucks, give me the porsche anyday.
i don't chase tail anymore, let them chase ours!
i work in the top studios in london on a regular basis, have done for years, dodgydesign just make the most expensive "multitracking" solution "conceivable", what exactly is that worth?
if you work in film, i understand that 192k is potentially necassary, but as far as the music "biz" is concerned, 44.1/48 and some groovy plugs sihts on "fidelity".
garbage in/garbage out shall be the whole of the law...

Écrit par : Synthetik lun. 2 sept. 2002, 03:33

My two cents,
The only reason I would upgrade from a TDM system to a HD is the 192khz, but with me I use 96khz but could do fine with 44.1, so is your HZ importent to you?

Écrit par : Stuartpa lun. 2 sept. 2002, 23:23

I have to agree that Digi is definitely in for the money, but then is DP free?? or LOgic for that Matter.

I love the PTHD setup it is fantastic, waiting for everyone to get their software compatible has beena bit of a pain but in the final analysis until you have a CPU that runs at 12 Ghz you can't touch Pro Tools HD for audio quality. ALso now that Logic supports PTHD and DP 3.2 will also support it, if you can afford it go for it.

I have been in the "Computer Audio" business since before there was such a thing as a sequencer nad have followed all the so called progress htat has been made and No One is ever happy with new stuff I think because they feel they can't compete.

If you are any good you can compete on an Atari. It's not the gear that makes the Music it's the Musician. Buy what YOU like not what someone else thinks and study what you are getting into before you buy. Then if you have the time afterwards to complain about everything, well what can I say. Gotta split soundiver just finished working at long last.

Écrit par : damann mer. 4 sept. 2002, 01:06

hi stuartpa!
here at macmusic everybody does what they do for free.
digi don't do anything for free!
protools free is so limited in functionality that digi are confident that once they have you hooked on it, you'll develope a burning desire to give them money for a more functional version.
at which point, you're on the "ladder" that ultimately means you'll pass a few grand their way.
emagic for one, have tried this approach a few times. i think you'll find that digi are the only people out there that stand to make as much money from their outlandishly priced upgrades as they do, for this to be viable.
you don't actually get "something for nothing" in this world.
digi software sucks in comparison. all the regular pt users will hate me for saying this, but in the meantime, on a professional basis, i have to use this software to earn money. it 'aint pretty!
i've also been in this industry since before sequencers were invented. yes, an atari, mpc, or whatever, can compete with any of this sophisticated stuff. it's really about what YOU do with it.
please don't believe that protools is "ultimately" free!
i'd rather try some demos of software that openly wants my money if i decide i like it, than follow this phoney route.

end of rant...

Écrit par : Stuartpa mer. 4 sept. 2002, 05:18

How the hell do you live if you everything for free.

I do have to agree with you on the subject of Digi, when yo uthink of who is really behind them it is a bit scary (DIGI owned by Avid owned by ****oft owned by UNOHU the biggest money grabber of all and probably one of the prime reasons we are not further ahead today than we are.

Yu[ Iuse DIGI hardware but I use Logic and will be using Performer as soon as they are compatible. Most of the Plugins and add ons are not DIGI just a couple and I would hate to be stuck using Pro Tools for composition, thank you Logic for saving my Butt there.

But to answer the original question I still think that Pro Tools HD is the way to go. Maybe when I get the new Dual 1.2Ghz Mac in I may change my mind but I will wait for that one.

As for the Rant, you should hear me whenver DIGI sends me something that is not HD compatible and I have to wait another 3 weeks for them to sort the **** out. There is no way I am paying $2000 or more for their Tech support. I have talked with some of the guys from the original DIGI they were good guys then, but they said they quit because DIGI was getting too corporate. SO mate Rant away its nice to hear an opinion once in a while

Écrit par : damann mer. 4 sept. 2002, 09:58

cheers dude!
i know some stuff about the m1#r0$0ft connection that'll make your hair curl.
if you use rocket for instance, whose servers do you think your music ends up living on?
be afraid...

Écrit par : Stuartpa mer. 4 sept. 2002, 17:48

HI Dman, so Rocket is yet another method used to screw us that is enlightening. You know the KGB and the Gestapo had nothing on BG he is like a ******* leech on the society.

He has his fingers in every pie nad he has stopped so much stuff that would have been really far out had the companies been left alone.

I mean in the early days DIGI was great and they realy were forward looking. Can you imagine where they would be now if thye had managed to stay out of the **oft trap.

I know one thing for sure as far s I possibly can I will leave no creative data on any site held by those folks, I am sure if they like it you will lose it somehow and they just gotta be keeping an ear to the ground or the server becasue if it is original it might make them even more Money.

I like to get paid for what I do but I am not that greedy. I have to admit that posting my message in this forum was well worth it and thanks for the info it is appreciated.

Écrit par : steeveaudio99 ven. 27 sept. 2002, 17:44

Écrit par : III777III mar. 1 oct. 2002, 07:00

EVERYONE that has been reading this post, would you guys agree that digi has allways kept there products in the POST demain?

i mean, first you get the automation, then 24bit, then 192 then?
there prices have allways kept there poducts out of reach from music end users and into the BIG rooms that charge the BIG bucks.

i gather there market targets are the money making studios and 75%+ of there annual tax expense budget, sounds correct to you guys?

Even in logic 5 i cant seem to get a perfect break on automation , its not as accurate as pro tools at all, there audio editing needs TONS of work to improve logics accuracy, and lots of logic audio is flaky and un reliable, yet emagic has still been the best UP digi's crack!!, no one else comes closer then emagic., even with there own LOGIC CONTROL/PRO CONROL clone that you get complaints too with regarding some faders are not accurate too and have been returned to shops.

But one thing for sure is when i do POST work in a room that has a PTHD system is that it feels the closest to tape ever, and tape has no BIT limit!!!, also Pro Tools is SOLID!!,

So what im getting at is someone has to be the one to PUSH it all to the max, although we have to agree its a buisness and they also push this too far as well.

But i have one thing to say to digi, why dont they make a fully step up system for all levels with pay as you go add on hardware per track, then everyone can benefir and especially digi been able to garantee there customer a REAl upgradable investment, and not a hoax like the last 11 years they pulled off and keep getting away with.

ofcourse we all know this CraP but no one sais anything about it, thought i would again here.

Écrit par : Teiwaz mer. 30 oct. 2002, 10:43

Hi, this is my first posting. I'm a mate of Damann, and I'm based in LA with my studio after leaving the UK.

To begin with, I would like to clarify my political veiwpoint.

I have a PT TDM system using Logic 99% of the time as the front end on a G4. I also have a dual gig G4/VST2 rig with a MOTU 2408, also running Logic. I refuse to touch dodgy's 888 interface (I've heard better top end coming from a glass of coca cola) or how about their new 192 (looks like a piece of crap, what pathetic led metering, if it sounds like it looks, no thanks). I have an Apogee AD-8000 and have come across some very interesting test results comparing Bum Factory's Pultec EQ with the magnificent UAD-1 card's Pultec EQ. I Eq'd a bass on the UAD-1 Pultec plug, then passed the signal through a TDM channel via lightpipe, inserted a Bum Factory Pultec across it, and lo and behold, the 50hz bottom end generated by the UAD-1 Pultec was CANCELLED OUT (my speaker cones stopped moving) when switching the Bum Factory's Pultec out of bypass mode (all controls flat). And just to imagine some greenhorn buying the Bum Factory version (because of their ball & chain PT system) for around the same price that you can buy the UAD-1 PCI card and get all those great plugs bundled free!! One could misconstrue another as being a monkey without a brain to buy into the profools/notools HD "solution". What is all this crap about HD sounding so good anyway?! If you get an Apogee convertor (expensive but worthwhile) you can interface anything to it. The AMBUS cards available are A) ADAT lightpipe B) Firewire - direct connect to your ASIO host) and C) dodgydesign interface (if you so happen to own a TDM/Mix/Mixplus system) and D) DA-88 interface . Beyond that, why bother at all with dodgy? I keep thinking of a large ship in the middle of the atlantic with not enough lifeboats to go around... Children & lazy programmers first! Interestingly enough, dodgy have recently coerced Universal Audio to release their LA-2A, Urei & Pultec plugs on the HD "platform". I see many PT heads migrating to VST2 once they realise they can have the whole shooting match for around the price of one TDM plug-in of the same breed

Just thought I'd share my thoughts with you...

Écrit par : Teiwaz mer. 30 oct. 2002, 11:23

A few more observations to clear my head on this matter.. For the shrinking minority out there who may be championing the use of PTHD systems, just exactly how many plug-in instanciations can one glean out of their system when it's running at a ridiculously high sample rate of 192khz? And to be worrying about the strain on your hard drive when exceeding 24 tracks? It would appear that one would end up with a very unwieldy system (a few hot & tired noisy audio drives would be part of it)...I thought the 21st century was about conservation and efficiency, not "build bigger roads and then make everyone buy SUV's..."



I heard of a well known producer/engineer using his Apogees with his TDM rig at 24/44.1 and that those who are "better informed" are aware that the quality & detail in hard disk recording is more attributable to bit depth rather than sample rate. And of course, being an accomplished engineer with good ears is 75% of a great mix anyhow!

Most PT people who own PTHD are generally still using their new system at 48khz or 44.1 anyway!! It's just like buying the latest Mercedes model just so they can "keep up with the jones's" next door!



PTHD people sometimes MIX to 24/96khz (so the little red light with 96khz written underneath it glows in the A&R man's/director's audio system in his office behind the walnut panelling...THEY will never know that the master files of the "96khz session" were recorded at 24/44.1, certainly not with their ears, that's for sure - it's all industry politics, this 96khz thing...VERY boring)



Here's another observation on TDM: I dont like the way TDM 'interrupts' the entire audio bus when enabling/disabling plug-ins/sends/i/o/etc. Hey, VST2 doesn't behave like that! I think that's quite a fundamental design fault right there! When maxing out the DSP farms, sometimes hitting the limit when inserting a TDM plug can actually cause the system to hang. What's all that about?! I never have that problem on VST2 either.



My VST2 mixes p**s all over my TDM mixes - I wonder why?!



Summary: Approach Dodgydesign with extreme caution. And then turn around, and walk in the opposite direction.