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Écrit par : wonx mer. 27 nov. 2002, 19:41

I logic's stuff that much better to justify the $$$ or do they just force you to buy their expensive VI's by not offering REWIRE!

What are the limitations of Reason?

Écrit par : Synthetic mer. 27 nov. 2002, 19:48

not sure what you are asking but...

reason doesn't record audio from external sources... thai is the major downside

Écrit par : wonx mer. 27 nov. 2002, 20:37

What I was wondering was why pay close to 300 for the ESXP another 100 for for the E1, annother 100 for the E2, another 150 for the vintage piano..... and so on when Reason can do all of it plus drums for under $300. Is the grainable synth in reason equilaveanent as far as sound and features to the E1? And the NN-XT, NN19, how do they compare to the ESXP?

Always look forward to what you have to say synthetic!

-W

Écrit par : rickenbacker jeu. 28 nov. 2002, 12:45

Wonx, I have a lot of sympathy. If I was more cynical, I'd be thinking that Emagic are dragging their feet on ReWire for Logic 5 simply because they don't want to support someone else's apps.

I've got Logic 5 Platinum, I've got Reason 2.0: why can't I use them together? According to Propellerheads tech support, Emagic have all the necessary tools to implement ReWire, they just haven't done it yet. Which seems a strange atitude from the company that is insisting that audio units are really easy to convert to for VST programmers, so everyone should get on board. Hello? If its' all about the end users, can we have ReWire, then?

Two updates on OS X (up to 5.5.0 now) and still no ReWire support. I wonder if Emagic are planning a drum machine for Logic?

By the way, did you know Live 2.0 is coming in December, which apparently makes it much more like a multitrack recording environment? OK, it's not Logic, but at least it ReWires with Reason. I've got a feeling I'll be using that setup a lot more in the future until Emagic sorts ReWire out.

Écrit par : wonx jeu. 28 nov. 2002, 17:08

Exactly! After reading all these posts and the sequencer poll I had the idea that Logic was it. I'd buy it in a second if it had Rewire, but I'm really rethinking everything as I come under the impression that Emagic is a really exclusive package?

I too am contemplating the Live 2.O option. Any idea on what it's limitation will be?

-wonx

Écrit par : Synthetic ven. 29 nov. 2002, 05:56

it all depends on how you work... by the way, Logic 5 silver BIG BOX is $300 and comes with most of the plugs you mentioned

if you really like working with midi... such as you have external midi controllers and or sound modules like a synth... then Logic is going to give way more options and features and let you "tweak the hell out of em" plus it offers audio recording and sequencing. Yes Reason is a good deal really for what it does and it soft synths is your thang and you are happy with what Reason offers then it may be better for you but also note that while you can get new patches for the instruments in Reason... you cant add any and stuck with what comes with it. But, there are tons of VST stuff for Logic you can add on and more FX options and some FX seem better quality. Most pros use Reason in combination with another sequencer for more flexibility... they say so in Remix mag at least.

Logic has a lot more under the hood really that is geared for more than using soft synths and samplers really. Its more of a central control app for all your midi equipment, score creator and mixing station.

So, either program is good... just depends on what you want out of them as to which is better.

I was die hard Pro Tools user for several years until I finally got into Logic and love the options it opened for use with my external gear and the ESX24 sampler simply blows my mind after working with a cheap EMU ESI2000 hardware sampler that was un-mac friendly and a pain to setup. Now I still rely on PT for most straight audio work but for composing and midi I go straight to Logic and if I use Reason I just import solo tracks from Reason to multi-track in PT or Logic.

Écrit par : rickenbacker ven. 29 nov. 2002, 09:08

That's actually a good idea from Synthetic there - importing single tracks from Reason. It's not as tidy as ReWire, but it looks like a good solution until Emagic sorts it out.

Live 2.0 looks like it'll be a major upgrade, making the program more of a multitrack recorder like Logic, Cubase etc. I've got 1.5 and I like it, it's a good program to have around, so I'm looking forward to 2.0.

But Logic is still going to be the better multitrack sequencer. Better FX and more of them, more control/editing features, just a more complete package, I think. If I could only have one, I'd stick with Logic.

I'm lucky enough to have all three (Logic, Live, Reason), so I can use each one as and when I need to. It's horses for courses, really - they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Hmm, if I sit on this fence any longer, I'm going to have a permanent crease. I'm off.

Écrit par : Levon River ven. 29 nov. 2002, 18:37

The NN-XT in Reason, alone, blows several hardware samplers into twinkling bit-dust. Its ability to set root note by pitch, and to auto-map zones, are both major time-savers. It also provides such advanced features as cross-fading samples by velocity, random samples, plus lots of filter, modulation, and envelope control features. Not to mention all the other great modules in Reason.

Unfortunately Reason's MIDI sequencer/editor leaves much to be desired, and it can't record and playback audio, which requires its interaction with dedicated MIDI sequencer/DAW software packages for a full arranging and recording solution.

So Propellarheads showed their actual dedication--not just lip service--to the needs and desires of users, and went the extra mile and created a way for other such programs to hook into and control Reason, all to be set up and controlled by the user, with the other hardware and software that the USER chooses.

So that's *their* approach and value. If other makers of music products shared their philosophy and commitment to the music-maker, making music would be a solid pleasure.

Then, for some reason, we have the ProTools and the Logics of the world. Maybe to provide expensive-and-elaborate or expensive-and-dinky dongles. Maybe to impress the impressionable. They've got to be there for something. It can't just be gougeware, snob appeal and elitism. But we find Logic willfully not supporting ReWire, and we try to find logic in it, and fail. (Isn't it amazing how the words "reason" and "logic" plague attempts at understanding?) But the fact remains that many companies, like Propellarheads, have proven conclusively that good music can be made without any of that proprietary and elitist baggage.

I think it a tragedy that there are musicians who can be seduced into the "bigger better toys" game, and actually wave their dinky dongles in public instead of soberly pursuing the enrichment of the culture through making more and better music.

The only question becomes who and what do you want to support with your hard-scratched scratch.

Écrit par : wonx ven. 29 nov. 2002, 19:32

That has been my impression all along. I've been reading how each company describes themselves in their "about us". I was so impressed with Propellorheads statement (again Rewire = not just lip service).

"What is good for the industry as a whole is good for us as well.".

The Emagic web page described the company in terms of it's business success.

"We will explore new markets and business opportunities."

Just left me wanting a quality sequencer that shared Propellorhead's philosophy.

-W

Écrit par : Levon River ven. 29 nov. 2002, 19:51

That's why I'm still on my Ghandiesque musical sit-down strike in OS X.

The only hopes out there on the "RSN" horizon for us adrift in this raft are MOTU's Digital Performer and the being-reincarnated Metro.

Although MOTU can be accused of being slow about it, their track record is that they they always came around to the "greater community" frame of mind sooner or later: they ultimately took the initiative to provide OMS emulation to end the stalemate between FreeMIDI and OMS. With wrappers (like VST Wrapper and Spark's FX Machine for MOTU), you could also use most VST effects and some VST Instruments in DP (although to MOTU's discredit, only third-party ware made it possible). Who knows what they are cooking up for their OS X recipe. We can only hope that they haven't succumbed to the marketing madness that appears to dominate the field right now.

Metro being back in the hands of its creator now is a very interesting development. The original company that created Metro and Deck, OSC, built that on the exact philosophy of providing powerful and accessible software, reasonably priced. I have my fingers crossed that they will have the good sense to reinstate and continue that tradition now that Metro has audio capabilities, and promised support for both VST 2.0 and Audio Units (at least as I follow this murcurial pool of sketchy info). Here's the latest url for promised features:

http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://sagantech.biz/metro/products.shtml

Light a candle and hope these two stay the course. If they are smart, and really make their product as flexible and user-friendly and non=proprietary as possible, including as much inter-app connectivity as possible, I believe either of them could quickly rise to the top of the heap. It will be a very interesting horse-race to watch--one where everybody could come out winners.

Écrit par : wonx ven. 29 nov. 2002, 22:57

My candle is lit! I do believe....I do believe....

Écrit par : dkma ven. 29 nov. 2002, 23:34

Using Logic 5.5 and I have to say that Reason is cool for creating loops. As far as the differences goes I have to say that with Logic I can do a lot more. I do not have Reason 2, but I was able to use rewire with the 1.01 version of Reason. Logic just updated the EXS to MKII - all the same modulation features of the ES2, plus the ability to use a side chain as a modulation source - cool using a vocal track to control the filter cutoff. Reason is a very good software, but I'm not able to record audio directly into Reason, reason's samples are not accessible by other samplers unless you bounce the file to disk. The effects in Reason are adequate enough to get basics going but would like to see a 8 band eq, excitier, more fx, and more modulation sources. I make loops in Reason to upload into the EXS. The EXS also reads rex files, Logic audio is also able to read rex files to add to the audio window. I think Reason gets it's use in my studio, but I have not found a reason to update to reason 2.o since Reaktor has a lot of the synthesis/sampling methods that I can use. I wonder when people realize that there is really not a one package solution for all your audio needs. YEs, Emagic products are expensive but I have to admit that they are solid so far and have not caused me any problems. I'm writing songs with the EXS to purchase the ES2. Make'em pay for themselves. If you want witness of my EXS cmpositions check out my website:
http://nav.440network.com/out.php?mmsc=forums&url=http://home.earthlink.net/~dkma
follow the link to MP3.com

thanks
Dana Kelley

Écrit par : rickenbacker dim. 1 déc. 2002, 13:47

I know Levon doesn't like Live, but version 2.0 looks like it'll offer a new full-blown multitrack sequencer for Mac users in OS X, plus it's already got ReWire support. I'm looking forward to seeing what it can do, especially in sync with Reason. There's Cubase SX, too - that's got ReWire support already.

I like Logic and it's certainly a powerful beast. But I am starting to get a bad feeling about Emagic, ReWire and Emagic's attitude in general. Their products ARE expensive, simple as that.

Écrit par : Levon River lun. 2 déc. 2002, 02:44

Rickenbacker, are you still stewing over the fact that I said I thought Live's interface looked like a Saturday morning cartoon show?



Okay, let me go on the record as saying I have absolutely *no* functional criticism of the program whatsoever. From the little I've played around in it, I think it's a *fine* program, a peach, a pip. It's not something I have any real immediate use for, but from what I can tell it's very well done for what it does. There, now; we all square?

I just get a craving for Cocoa Puffs when I open it, that's all.


That sounds like really good news. Any idea when they hope to have that out? (I will get around to their web site sooner or later; just thought you might know.)

Écrit par : E rouge lun. 9 déc. 2002, 06:24

Reason 2 is pretty decent software, but no where near Logic.... Pro tools was the top dog, but now with apple buying logic, buying a mac and logic, is like buying a dedicatd system...

Reason is ok, but my deadly combination is

logic 5.5 on my g4
halion (so easy to set up samples)
esx24 (for akai samplers)
motu 828

I just started using reason, and it has good sounds, but no where near the sequencing in logic. NOTHING COMPARES TO LOGIC!

I find the sequencer in reason to be someone like a toy, and not very flexiable.... Maybe its because I am a new reason 2 user.... but with the effects in logic, its really good.... Reason is insane on a laptop, because you can carry it around . Over all, get logic, it will help you out in the long run......

Écrit par : Synthetic sam. 21 déc. 2002, 16:54

yep, I agree with you E rouge... Logic is a midi tweakers heaven that can also serve as a nice command center for all your midi gear where Reason can handle midi but has nowhere near the midi options Logic has. They really are on 2 seperate playing fields so to speak.

I am looking into adding the new Storm app into my arsenal soon. Looks to have lots of sound generating goodies and can run inside Logic as VST or run as stand alone.

Écrit par : ryosode sam. 21 déc. 2002, 23:08

Hm... I don't know why this question came up, but Logic and Reason are simply different. Reason 2.0 by itself is *like* a MIDI tone generator; sure you can make a music sequence by itself, but many of us like to have other options as well. Logic on the other hand is a studio where instruments come together (Logic Instruments and Reason included) and being assembled into a music.

If you are just talking about the quality of the Logic instruments v.s Reason's equivalent instruments, I am guessing Logic's instruments are much better in terms of actual physical model simulation...

Écrit par : sazerac mer. 19 févr. 2003, 22:34

Logic 6, which should be out any time, has support for Rewire 2. As well as several other excellent new features that I can't wait to get my hands on. IMHO it did take too long to provide this capability, but there are so many other powerful features to learn in Logic that I wasn't bothered at all with the wait.

Écrit par : belab dim. 23 mars 2003, 03:45

Pluggo in tandem with Live and Protools free accomplishes everything I need to accomplish on a shoestring budget. a midi controller helps. oh and Did I forget to mention Absynth.

Logic looks intriguing but also seems a bit pricey. I'm waiting to see if Apple ever intends to bundle the software with a cpu.